TL;DR? Scroll to the bottom for the cliff notes edition of this post.

So, if you've been getting new fic submission updates from this group, then you'll have noticed our most recent submissions. I certainly did. While it's great that people are writing, and usually displaying an adequate grasp of English for the job, one thing has rather bothered not just me, but several other admins.

These stories were questionably TCB. I personally held the view that they were little more than rickety wagons with TCB painted on the side and filled with straw ponies with angry faces on them for the express purpose of burning. While I'm sure these works of literature were clearly satire that flew right over my head and deserve homes among literary greats, the fact remains that they do not belong in this group.

Why does The Conversion Bureau exist? Because one guy had a dream that ponies should come to Earth, and humans should become ponies because it's the dandiest thing ever, and other people shared his sentiment. While I'm not quite as willing to believe most of humanity would just up and do that for the heck of it, and firmly believe most would need a little bit more incentive for such a shift, I still want to see stories where humans turned into horses.

Not stories where ponies are literally compared to Hitler and/or vilified crudely. It just doesn't do it for me, and out of the 600+ members of this group (at time of writing) I'm sure most of you share this sentiment. You might rather see stories where a handsome bachelor(ette) of a character with the same name as you ships intimately with a Spitfire intrigued by ex-humans. And as long as that story's in a TCB universe, we have no beef with it.

So, thus motivated, the admins have had a little chin-wag and nutted out a few things:

1) Stories must be TCB-related upon submission -- Just like that site-wide rule that says it has to be ponies before you submit, I'm just going to underscore how this is a group for stories set in a decidedly TCB universe, and not stories that will become TCB, or stories that could be TCB with liberal interpretation. Stories that have to be justified as "technically TCB" are probably not really TCB.

1b) TCB related content goes in the TCB group -- As a subset of the above point, we're extending the TCB rule to these forums, too. Again, we're here for the purposes of enjoying stories where humans become horses, and waking up to a thread where the topic is an anthem about how humanity is great and ponies are evil just doesn't... you know? We're kind of backing the ponies, here. You don't walk into a Manchester United pub and tell them all Man U sucks and Liverpool FC is better. You are going to find the welcome rather frosty.

2) No more ACB (Alternative Conversion Bureau) folders -- Back in the day, many of us actually advocated having the ACB folders in the name of trying to bury the hatchet. Since then, some of us have come to regret the decision as all we got in the folder were thinly disguised and flimsily constructed hate fics, and not the intellectual, make-you-think alternative takes we kind of expected (And got in possibly nonexistient amounts). When these flimsy hate fics are being submitted far more often than actual TCB stories, then we have a problem, and something has to go. We decided that it was the ACB folders.

"But Silvertie," you complain. "What gives you the right to tell us we can't put ACB stories here?" The answer: I'm not. I'm saying the ACB folders are going, and the story must be TCB if you want to put it here. It is entirely possible (and likely) for an ACB fic to make the cut. All you have to do is make sure your ACB fic is a TCB story, and put it in a suitable folder. (And given that we have several folders with minimal requirements, this should not be hard.)

Which brings us to our next topic: The Folders. I personally saw no need to fix what wasn't broke, but a majority of the admins agreed to shuffle them around a little. You should hopefully see the extent of our rearrangement in a few days, but I anticipate the following significant changes:

>Author-specific universes moved into a subfolder
>Addition of Post-TCB folder

It almost wasn't worth writing home about, but there you go. During this time, the ACB folders may also be broken up, the contents refiled in appropriate folders if applicable.

Now, if you're the rebellious sort, you're probably thinking about how "not-TCB" stories should deserve to go in the TCB group, and how we're not the boss of you, freedom of speech, etc etc. That's entirely true, and while we can't physically reach through the computer screen and stop you clicking that submit button, be warned: If an admin catches you, your mileage can and probably will vary from a gentle warning to a no-appeal permaban from the group, depending on the situation, your reputation for shitposting, and who saw your name cross the red line.

If you think something I have said in this post is ambiguously worded, please do not hesitate to point out the offending clause so I can clarify it. Otherwise, the writing is on the wall.

TL;DR
The Cliff Notes Edition

Q: What's going on?
A: No more ACB folders, stories need to be TCB when you add them, minor folder rearrangement planned.

Q: Will this affect me, Joe Bloggs the everyman TCB fan?
A: Probably not, but you might want to give this a quick read-over just to make sure.

Q: I want to post my ACB satire where an evil Celestia gets her just desserts from righteous humans.
A: This is most likely not the group for this kind of story.

Q: But Liverpool FC really is better than Man U
A: That's incredibly rude.

Q: What happens if I don't want to listen to you? I feel like submitting pony bashing fics!
A: Then this is possibly not the group for you. You are just as likely to be quietly warned as you are to be quietly banned with no appeal. Don't take that chance.

Q: Do you secretly want to see a story where the author ships himself with Spitfire?
A: Maybe.

I can live with this.

Hmm. I already foresee an issue here. The Alt-TCB stories are, by their very nature, different from what you guys consider the 'regular' version. Hence why they got their own folder since they are fics that are basically an entirely alternate take on the basic premise (ponies come to earth and people seemingly convert by the millions), where very different viewpoints are presented. Because these types of stories sometimes depict Celestia firmly in the role of villain —or at the very least a well-intentioned extremist who is unwilling to budge on her views— many 'purist' TCBers (whatever that term can be taken to mean) may not understand the point of blending the ACB material into the regular TCB folders. As I understand it, the ACB folders that were added here were largely to give readers a chance to see the TCB 'counterculture' if you will— the idea that the ponies appearance on Earth isn't always considered a good thing and how some fics will develop out of that premise. To be fair, we have similar folders in the ACB group, but because nobody from this group really posts there anymore they are empty since those who post there tend to only add their own fics to our folders, rather than straight TCB fics. That doesn't mean I would advocate removing those folders, nor would I consider the idea of removing the ACB folders here, since many fans would like to see ACB fics in their own little corner of this group as much as ACBers would like to see 'standardized' TCB fics remain in their own folders on our group. TCB and ACB act as one another's counterculture and conceptual foil. While I have no say in how this group is run, I do see this as a somewhat weird choice. Yes, some fics in the ACB will be very counter to the original fic's core concept, but do bear in mind that even Blaze himself has acknowledged that the original story and much of its first few references to how the ponies viewed humans was very controversial and came back to bite him. It in fact was one of the leading causes of the break in the readerbase. I think we all know who and what was the other cause in the schism. That aside, however, the question is simply this, would readers who come to thisa group be willing to accept a blending of the two versions of TCB into a handful of folders, or is it more likely that they want to keep the ACB stuff as a separate list of fics here on the group because it is, for this group, a niche that, while certainly useful, isn't one they want seeing in the regular folders. Do you mix teh peanut butter and chocolate, and hope people like the peanut butter cups that come from it, or not, I guess is the best analogy I can come up with.

Ah well. Just some food for thought.

2634279
I'm pretty sure the initial break in the readerbase was people being unrelenting tools to a single author. We were pretty much golden until the hatewagon got here.

The reason for the removal/disabling of the ACB folders is because "It's ACB" was being used as an excuse to ladle hate on the genre and by association, make us all look like morons due to the average-at-best grade of writing.

We might be mixing the peanut butter and chocolate here, but hopefully now there will be a better ratio of peanut butter to chocolate, and gods willing, the peanut butter will be of a higher quality and not crappy no-brand rubbish.

If people want more peanut butter, then there is an entire group they can go root around in. And if they came here looking for peanut butter... well. Not what's on the jar. The fact that any ACB made it into this group is more down to the administration's decision at the time to allow double-dipping of the peanut butter knife in our tub of chocolate spread.

I guess the rule of no fun/no reaction images was secretly enacted as well.

2634342

The reason for the removal/disabling of the ACB folders is because "It's ACB" was being used as an excuse to ladle hate on the genre and by association, make us all look like morons due to the average-at-best grade of writing.

So, basically, you're doing it because you think presenting two different sides to the genre is somehow a bad thing? Cause that's what the above quote makes it sound like. I also take personal offense to the idea that having fics here that aren't somehow masterpieces makes you guys somehow look like 'morons'. Not every 'straight' TCB fic is a five star classic either, you know.

We might be mixing the peanut butter and chocolate here, but hopefully now there will be a better ratio of peanut butter to chocolate, and gods willing, the peanut butter will be of a higher quality and not crappy no-brand rubbish.

Again, this kind of statement really just makes it sound like you (and here I mean you, personally) just don't want to have ACB fics here because you personally have an issue with them.

If people want more peanut butter, then there is an entire group they can go root around in. And if they came here looking for peanut butter... well. Not what's on the jar. The fact that any ACB made it into this group is more down to the administration's decision at the time to allow double-dipping of the peanut butter knife in our tub of chocolate spread.

It's true that there is a group that presents the ACB side of the idea, but it also leaves the door open for straight TCB fics to be included in folders over there.

I'm pretty sure the initial break in the readerbase was people being unrelenting tools to a single author. We were pretty much golden until the hatewagon got here.

Except the initial break was caused by people seeing issues with what they were reading and being ridiculed for not jumping on the bandwagon which had a habit of proclaiming the fics that followed in the wake of the original (Itself a source of some of the earliest issues of the controversy caused by people being ridiculed for seeing issues in the concept) to be a work of ultimate genius, resulting in those readers feeling a need to create their own group because of the behavior of people who would incite flame wars simply for saying they saw issues with the idea and tried to discuss them with others. Was there a particular person who indulged in that behavior? Of course. But as we know, said author was largely just the straw that broke the camel's back. And has since gone their own way because of disliking the fact that the animosity that existed between the two groups was able to be resolved peaceably, for whatever reason.

It is entirely possible (and likely) for an ACB fic to make the cut. All you have to do is make sure your ACB fic is a TCB story, and put it in a suitable folder.

This also brings up another point relative to what I've been saying as well. An ACB story is by it's very nature, still a TCB story to begin with, but is not a 'standard' TCB according to the way you're referring to it. If an ACB fic is not a 'standard' TCB story, then how exactly would you define an ACB story as being a TCB story and thus be allowed into the group's other folders? This is something I want to hear explained, because again, by it's very nature, an ACB story is an alternate take on the concept, hence the quantifer of 'Alt', and was why I foresaw an issue with this idea.

2634570

You do realize that you're basically just asking for the definition of a TCB fic at this point, right?

2634597

More or less, yeah. I'm just saying, that the way he said it made little real sense. So I want to see how he explains how an ACB fic would be considered anything OTHER than an ACB fic and thus be able to be put in the 'regular' TCB folders on here. I for one, would love to see how this is possible since it would defy the very natures of both fic styles, even though both fics are TCB stories, since ACB fics take a different viewpoint from the 'standard' TCB stuff.

2634342,

The reason for the removal/disabling of the ACB folders is because "It's ACB" was being used as an excuse to ladle hate on the genre and by association, make us all look like morons due to the average-at-best grade of writing.

If you're so concerned with story quality, apply it across the board, not just to a genre you seem to have a gripe with.

In other words, if I were to write a "straight TCB" fic filled with misanthropy and crap writing where the Ponies convert Earth, you would be fine with it?

But if I were to craft a high-octane technothriller that would make Tom Clancy proud and it's about Humanity fighting back and defeating TCB Ponies, you would reject it?

Either admit you just plain don't like ATCB stories in your group or put your words into practice and start cleaning out the lower quality TCB stories.

2634830
2634649
I feel I must repeat myself. This is a very long post. There will be a TL;DR.

just like that site-wide rule that says it has to be ponies before you submit, I'm just going to underscore how this is a group for stories set in a decidedly TCB universe, and not stories that will become TCB, or stories that could be TCB with liberal interpretation.

"But Silvertie," you complain. "What gives you the right to tell us we can't put ACB stories here?" The answer: I'm not. I'm saying the ACB folders are going, and the story must be TCB if you want to put it here. It is entirely possible (and likely) for an ACB fic to make the cut. All you have to do is make sure your ACB fic is a TCB story, and put it in a suitable folder. (And given that we have several folders with minimal requirements, this should not be hard.)

What part of this is unclear? I quote Warwolf:

This also brings up another point relative to what I've been saying as well. An ACB story is by it's very nature, still a TCB story to begin with, but is not a 'standard' TCB according to the way you're referring to it.

You answered your own question. ACB is still, if done properly, TCB of a sort. Which is the only qualifier for a story here. Now, if you want to put an ACB story in the "Traditional" folder, THEN you may have a problem, because as Warwolf says, ACB is not traditional TCB. However, as I will point out later on, that is not the only folder. I am not to blame because you cannot read or use common sense.

Now, the problem we tackled primarily here is that most recently submitted "ACB" stories seem to be largely incapable of relating the ACB angle to a TCB story, and they produce this generic story where their "ponies" bear resemblance to their show counterparts in name only, producing a story where the ponies are cookie-cutter, less-than-saturday-morning villains that could literally be replaced with any other villainous alien race.

FIM is by no means a cast of flawless individuals capable of making logically undeniable snap decisions, but they're not xenocidal shits, either. If you want to write ACB stories, you gotta set them in a TCB universe, and learn how to write characters.

And Velkaiden: You are assuming this is, first and foremost, a quality-based purge and that it is retroactive. If that were the case, I would be making all submissions require approval by a moderator. Which is not the case. This is us stating that we will be actually enforcing the requirement to be a TCB story, which shouldn't be that hard to understand, since this is a TCB group. In addition, this rule is not retroactive; you will see that even though this new rule would invalidate several stories in the ACB folder, the folder itself remains, contents intact. You can't add more to the folder (since we shut it down as per my previous posts) but the folder is there until the stories within can be resorted to more permanent homes.

Is it harder for an ACB story to do what it sets out to do and still be suitable for this group? Yes, it is -- you're setting out to write a story that goes against the intended spirit of this group. But is it impossible? Far from it, since, as I and Warwolf have pointed out above: ACB should still be identifiable as a TCB at it's core, leading me to my next point:

Warwolf: You demanded that I define TCB. Cheap shot. But I'll sell that shot anyway.
A TCB story, to me as an individual, would require:
>Equestria -- Because this is MLP fanfiction and if you're not playing with ponies, you are in the wrong site altogether.
>Characters recognizable as being MLP ponies (Or with evidence as to why they've suddenly pulled a character 180) -- As above. Pony fanfiction, pony site. Not too much to ask.
>Conversion Bureaus (As opposed to Conversion Concentration Camps, the difference being that you walk into one, and the other you're usually dragged into against your will.)

Note how these three checkboxes are not amazingly hard to check. That last one is a little harder, true, but that's literally the primary difference between TCB and your standard pony-on-earth fic. And this is a group for clop TCB Stories

I would argue that in order to highlight the fallacies of TCB, you must paint a picture of TCB in the first place and then do the highlighting. And yet, the main problem with ACB stories is that they often fail condition two, and rarely satisfy condition three, since the easiest way to justify the author's desired story/beatdown is to make Celestia distinctly evil and not think about the why and how. So what we get is a crude diagram with an angry-face picture of a stick horse with wings and a horn, saying "assimilate all humans" and the author's just drawing circles around it with a highlighter repeatedly while their favored race wins the day, expecting praise.

I say no. No shirt, no shoes, no service. Take it somewhere else.

In other words, if I were to write a "straight TCB" fic filled with misanthropy and crap writing where the Ponies convert Earth, you would be fine with it?

But if I were to craft a high-octane technothriller that would make Tom Clancy proud and it's about Humanity fighting back and defeating TCB Ponies, you would reject it?

You are violently wrong on both counts. I would hate the first on the grounds that there's no fucking reason for anything to happen and that you've just hit the "ponies win" button to try and make me look like a hypocritical cock. (Which I am sometimes, but not today.) Also that "victory" would be unjustified and unearned. I wanna see the "winner" actually earn the victory. Not just get it because of divine prophecy. Also it would hurt my eyes to read most likely, so I'd be openly calling the author a dumbass in the comments section and calling for a competent editor.

And I would accept and even openly praise the latter example if it's amazing enough (assuming it lives up to the advertised quality), as long as you don't just mash the "humans win because they're better" button. Again, spin us a goddamn tale. Trick me. Make the humans earn it. Don't be pretentious. Don't use the characters like a soapbox or a sockpuppet. Give me my high-octane. Play all the characters straight. Show me how they find another way out of the hole. Make the victory come at a price that makes -them- think twice. Make me think, damnit.

But at the end of the day, both stories would make it into the group, because they are (hopefully, in the latter's case) set in a TCB setting.

And with regards to folders: We have at least two -- count 'em, two -- folders with basically nonexistient requirements. Main and Featured Stories. The latter is one per customer, a fair and reasonable deal. Both simply require the submitted story to be a TCB story. I don't know how I can make it any easier.

Yes, the ACB group has TCB folders. Yes, we've done a big bad thing in shutting down our end of the hatchet-burying ceremony. You're big people, moral high ground, yadda yadda, but the point remains that if I submitted a TCB story to your group, it would get shit on so hard by an invisible downvote brigade that totally isn't biased against TCB stories, and it's unfortunate, but I must suck at writing. You two might possibly give me the time of day, but I really doubt the rest of the manchildren in the ACB would. Getting a TCB story to have a positive up/down ratio is hard enough without inviting six hundred people who are, by definition, not going to like or agree with my story, to mash the downvote button and make my story look like ass.

TL;DR
Every single point you two have raised is one that a) you could have answered yourself by doing a little reading, and/or b) is a weak attempt to make it seem like this is all an illegitimately conceived anti-ACB agenda from yours truly. I might be speaking with a lot of "I" statements, but in this capacity, I speak for all the mods except Windchaser, who doesn't wish to be involved in this stuff anyway.

The conditions are fair and reasonable. There isn't even really any new rules, we're just underlining the implicit requirement for a story to be here. We've set the bar pretty low, so It's your responsibility to shape up to get past it, not ours to lower it again.

2635764

Okay, I have to take this by the numbers here, cause there are a few issues which need to be brought up.

You answered your own question. ACB is still, if done properly, TCB of a sort. Which is the only qualifier for a story here. Now, if you want to put an ACB story in the "Traditional" folder, THEN you may have a problem, because as Warwolf says, ACB is not traditional TCB. However, as I will point out later on, that is not the only folder. I am not to blame because you cannot read or use common sense.

Now, the problem we tackled primarily here is that most recently submitted "ACB" stories seem to be largely incapable of relating the ACB angle to a TCB story, and they produce this generic story where their "ponies" bear resemblance to their show counterparts in name only, producing a story where the ponies are cookie-cutter, less-than-saturday-morning villains that could literally be replaced with any other villainous alien race.

This is pretty blatantly a false statement. Why? Let's go back to your very first post:

2) No more ACB (Alternative Conversion Bureau) folders -- Back in the day, many of us actually advocated having the ACB folders in the name of trying to bury the hatchet. Since then, some of us have come to regret the decision as all we got in the folder were thinly disguised and flimsily constructed hate fics, and not the intellectual, make-you-think alternative takes we kind of expected (And got in possibly nonexistient amounts). When these flimsy hate fics are being submitted far more often than actual TCB stories, then we have a problem, and something has to go. We decided that it was the ACB folders.

Okay, right here we have one of the main thrusts of the problem with what you're trying to claim. Basically, you have a bee in your bonnet that fics were being submitted that were more a specific sub-genre of ACB than you were getting of either normal ACB or TCB fics. Aside from the fact that this is pretty damn ridiculous when one considers the fact that the two ACB folders have less than a third of the combined amount of the remainder of the folders in this group (remember, the total stories here is 381. Of those, the folders based on the ACB sub-genre total all of 33, leaving another 341 fics that are 'standard' TCB fics based on this groups view of what a 'standard' TCB fic is.) I have to wonder how this even matters. For that matter, if you considered the more recent fics to simply be 'hate fics with TCB slapped on' why did you not simply remove those particular fics from the folders? Instead, you decide to say 'oh well people are submitting stories we don't like to a pair of folders instead of submitting stories we do like to the other folders in the group in the last few days/weeks/whatever compared to how many we got over the last two years plus. Therefore, we should get rid of the folders that these stories are being submitted to instead of just removing any of the fics that we feel don't fit either TCB or ACB'. Again, when you decide to blame the folders for the kind of fics you get submitted to them, the problem isn't the folders. It's that people are submitting stories that are a sub genre to a sub genre and are actively trying to get people involved by making them more accessible for consumption. The fact that we only hear from you on this subject and no other members of the group mods on this matter also makes your claims that this was a unanimous decision particularly suspect, as the wording you have produced in other posts on this thread do little to indicate that your actions aren't based out of a singular decision you have made yourself, and are instead trying to present as something that the rest of the admins have agreed was a good idea.

So again, the problem not tackled here is the fact that you have an issue with recent fic submissions which you feel don't measure up to either your standards OR ours, and yet instead of just removing those fics from the folders, you decide to just throw out the folders. Bear in mind that with the exception of two particular writers in the ACB sub-genre, namely myself and RK_Striker_JK_5, nobody in ACB writes their TCB-related fics within a set universe. Striker has the Hasbroverse, where there is a TCB related story in it, but is part of the ACB sub-genre. My own Shogunverse has two TCB-related fics from the ACB sub-genre. But these are fics that are part of a specific continuity within the works of their own writers.

By comparison most other ACB stories by the various writers, with the exception of Other Side of the Spectrum, which has seen some people trying to make a small shared universe from it, and thus there is no one particular 'verse' for their works, do not exist within the continuity of a greater fic universe by those writers. By comparison to that, there are some four different folders that each represent a specific TCB 'verse'. Now I will call it as it is. If you were to suddenly put stories that are from the ACB sub-genre into the folders for what this group considers the the standard TCB style of fic, you would probably get more problems than solutions because people would be wondering why these fics are now being mixed in with the fics that are taken from an opposing viewpoint on the concept. This is more than likely the reason that NO ACB fic has ever appeared in the featured stories folder, and only two (out of a grand total of 176) have ever appeared in the main stories folder. Both of which are set post-barrier and with no humans to actually speak of. I suppose one could call these fics 'post-Extinction ACB fics'. They do fit the ACB concept in that they are both deconstructions of the concept, but in the literal sense, they are not the standard ACB fic, but neither are they the standard TCB fic. They come off almost as more of a hybrid. The earth has been consumed by the barrier and humans are extinct, yet there are some ponies starting to feel like Celestia needs to be called out on what happened.

Secondly, the rule is quite literally stated and clarified on the front page with the following:

Anyone is allowed to submit stories to the group, so have at it -- the only rule is that it has to be a TCB story! (That is, set in a world where Conversion Bureaus are a thing.)

Now bear in mind that unless you specifically decide that this rule needs to be heavily amended, then any ACB fic qualifies as it is regardless of whether or not you personally like the story or the characterization of the ponies in it, so long as there are Conversion Bureaus in the setting of that fic, apparently whether they be active or not. As such, your comment about.....how did you put it earlier? Oh yes: How people who write ACB fics need to 'learn to write characters' is pretty much a slap in the face to any writer here, regardless of what version of the concept they write in and does little to make it seem like you don't have a personal gripe with ACB fics. Don't forget, there are many of us who believe that the fact that the ponies are presenting people with the choice of either being human and dying or giving up everything they knew just to be in Equestria instead of working to make it possible for humans to gain the same immunity to magic that other races already present in Equestria have so that there can be a genuine choice between whether or not the person or people in general will ponify to be as OOC as many of you perceive the ponies often depicted in ACB fics to be.

(Bear in mind as well that the expanding barrier itself, which was first presented in...I WANT to say Chatoyance or Krass' fic? I know it wasn't present in Blaze's, and did not—despite what some might want to claim— originate with the ACB, as it was actually one of the biggest problems we saw with the concept in general was part of why a lot of people who wrote and continue to write stories why the ponies are OOC. The entire concept of the barrier expanding to begin with and the only choice being to ponify went a LONG way towards taking what many already saw as OOCness in even the original fic and often ramping it up to eleven. I can at least say that there is a REASON why Celestia went batshit crazy in my fics, but that won't be revealed for awhile yet)

Now, as to your personal definition of TCB (and by your own words this was YOUR definition), let me point out that as they currently stand, any ACB fic still falls neatly under all three of your categories to qualify for this group.

1. Equestria is always involved. The whole premise of any TCB fic, regardless of which side of the divide it falls on, is that Equestria has either popped up on Earth or was just always there and recent events have thrown the story in question into motion.

2. Regardless of how they are shown in terms of characterization, the ponies are always MLP ponies. I know, I know, 'but Celestia comes off like a saturday morning cartoon villain!' you're saying. Well let's face the facts. Aside from the fact that the show itself is A SATURDAY MORNING CARTOON SHOW, show me one character, other than perhaps Chrysalis (and even she is debatable on this issue, see later in the paragraph) who wasn't a standard, saturday morning cartoon show villain who was, aside from whatever powerset they had, just out to conquer and/or fuck with people and/or rule? Nightmare Moon wanted to be the ruler of Equestria and have eternal night. Pretty standard saturday morning stuff right there. Discord....well let's face it, Discord was just out to fuck with everyone and everything he came across, and it was almost purely for the lulz. So yeah, not exactly the most traditional villain, but still an archetype we've seen before where the villain doesn't really care about ruling or even conquest so much as just out to see how much chaos he can cause. A role Discord is literally tailor made for by Faust herself. Sombra? Yeah, seriously. The guy had NO characterization whatsoever beyond 'evil, mindless, pretty much unintelligble aside from the occasional word or two, overlord who just wanted power.' Even Chrysalis, for all that she actually turns out to be one of the more effective villains in the show, simply wants Equestria both for the fact that she simply wants it and the fact that she can use it to power her changelings because it's the strongest power source she's ever encountered. The IDW comic actually plays this up. When the Chnagelings land in a land dripping with love (possibly more so than even Equestria) they pretty much STAY there for a good long damn while, even though Chrysalis still wants vengeance on Twilight Sparkle. And even then, her plan still boils down to the same basic 'rule the world!' of any saturday morning villain. Hell, even a few of the random villains of the week (assuming there is one in the show instead of just some random event that the ponies learn a lesson from) are pretty damn cookie cutter. Trixie? Braggart, and not even really a villain in her first appearance. Just kind of a jerk. But when she comes back? Full on saturday morning villain until she's shown the error of her ways. Blueblood? Not really a villain. Again, more of a jackass. Never really learns a lesson or anything, but still, he's about as cookie cutter as you can GET and is considered a minor antagonist. Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon? Classic child bullies who can be found on just about any saturday morning cartoon show where the main antagonists are themselves children. In fact, these characters are ridiculously static in that four seasons go by and their material is still basically bullying the Crusaders for having no cutie marks. Tiara's brief run as the editor of the Foal Free press is basically just your generic 'evil executive' archetype. They do briefly branch out to taunting Scoots in particular for her seeming inability to fly, but beyond that they just sit entirely on that whole 'blank flank' gimmick and keep plugging away at that even though the Crusaders are literally at the point of saying to them in Flight to the Finish' "yeah, we're blank flanks. So what?" They were literally telling their own bullies to get better material. And ten will get you twenty that the next time those two start bullying the crusaders again, they'll bring up the fact that the girls are still blank flanks. In this regard, any ACB story fits your concept of recognizable ponies, regardless whether or not they are on the heroic or villainous side of the line in any story. While you personally may not like the characterizations of ponies in an ACB story, they are still ponies, and recognizable as such, even if their personalities have been changed to suit the fic. But bear in mind, not every writer can, will, or even should, write a character identically to the canon. if that's all you want a fic to be...then just watch the show, cause that's where the ponies are SUPPOSED to be exact to their own canon. And people change the personalities and characterizations of the ponies and the creatures around them in fics all the time, often with no reason given for those changes and unless someone is a ridiculous stickler for the show's personalities, there are more people interested in the story than whether or not they think the characterizations of the ponies in the fic match 100% with the way they act in the show.. So that's that qualification met.

(And before I hear you say anything about how this was hypocritical of me to bring up when many in the ACB write the fics they do because they believe the ponies are already OOC, bear in mind that we have pointed this out in the past only to be told 'well it's JUST fanfiction'. It cuts both ways if you really wanna try to use that as a defense.)

3. This one is a bit iffier. But with the exception of, I think one set of stories (though to be fair I only recall reading one of the stories in that set), the Conversion Bureaus are still largely treated just as Bureaus for the most part and only ever change into anything more sinister over time and only if circumstances dictate they should. It's usually the PER or some other splinter faction that grew out of them that is forcibly converting humans into ponies, although some Bureaus can and probably do end up evolving into something like a forced conversion center in a story in which humans have stopped being willing to convert and the ponies are then unwilling to allow this to stand, leading to certain versions of the whole concept of the 'world at war' which often defines certain versions of the ACB sub genre. But to date, I have yet to see more than one set of stories where the Bureaus themselves are treated like concentration camps. Hell, even in the majority of the 'world at war' style ACB fics, I don't recall the Bureaus ever being used in such a fashion. The bureaus EXIST, but they're rarely shown to be used as anything but straight up Bureaus. They're just part of the background of the plot for the war-style stories. They're there, people largely use them willingly (again, Bureaus could become militarized over time and be used for coerced conversions, but I've only ever known it to have been done in one set of fics.), and in the long run, they're not treated really any differently than they are in TCB fics.

So.....that's all three of your qualifications met already, Silvertie. So why exactly does this somehow mean that the ACB folders are somehow the problem? Again, I don't think it is. I think it's just that you've gotten a recent influx of stories that are a sub genre of a subgenre and you got more of those recently than in the sub genre you guys write about and for some reason this upset you. The only reason this would make sense for it to upset you is that you have a personal gripe with ACB stories.

Yes, the ACB group has TCB folders. Yes, we've done a big bad thing in shutting down our end of the hatchet-burying ceremony. You're big people, moral high ground, yadda yadda, but the point remains that if I submitted a TCB story to your group, it would get shit on so hard by an invisible downvote brigade that totally isn't biased against TCB stories, and it's unfortunate, but I must suck at writing. You two might possibly give me the time of day, but I really doubt the rest of the manchildren in the ACB would. Getting a TCB story to have a positive up/down ratio is hard enough without inviting six hundred people who are, by definition, not going to like or agree with my story, to mash the downvote button and make my story look like ass.

.....Dude....

Seriously?

SERIOUSLY?

So, let me get this straight. You think the fact that someone would downvote your story justifies this kind of behavior? You think there aren't people who wouldn't downvote a story just for being an ACB fic in this group? You honestly can't tell me that hasn't happened, because you have no honest way to know that it hasn't. Are there some people who would do that? Sure. Some people can be idiots like that. But does that mean everyone would do so? No. Just because a fic is TCB or ACB doesn't mean everyone is going to downvote the shit out of something or shit on it just for being of one sub genre or the other. I'd like to think there are people who would at least want to discuss the fic in the comments with you or others.

Hell, I wrote a straight TCB fic, and I think I broke people's minds with it cause I'm doing it from the inside out and it's still gotten a ridiculous amount of invisible upvotes just for being a TCB fic. ...I think I actually got a few downvotes from a couple of people who didn't really know what the hell they were reading or just plain hated the fic. Saying 'oh well if I put a TCB fic in the ACB group everyone would shit on it so we should just remove the ACB folders here' is ridiculous....and kind of disgusting, all truth be told. Because seriously, look at one of the parts of that argument:

if Isubmitted a TCB story to your group, it would get shit on so hard by an invisible downvote brigade that totally isn't biased against TCB stories, and it's unfortunate, but I must suck at writing.

Dude. Seriously. You basically just said that you think that people would say you must suck at writing because someone downvoted your story if it was put in a particular group. You're telling me that you think people are going to think you suck at writing because someone downvoted your story without leaving a comment on your story.

I...just do NOT have the words to describe how ridiculous that statement is.

I just plain don't.

This is the single most pointless argument you have presented thus far. You think everyone whose seen my fics has left a comment, regardless of whether or not it got upvoted or downvoted? You think some people haven't just blindly upvoted or downvoted something of mine because they saw the fic was by me and just done it because they didn't like my work or knew what the subject matter I was going to be writing about was and didn't care if it was good or bad? It would be highly suspect in my mind if that hadn't happened at least once to the few stories I have up. Hell, as I recall, you DID have a fic up in our group, and people LOVED it, if memory serves. So all of a sudden, you think getting a bunch of downvotes on a TCB fic from people who are unwilling to consider a straight TCB fic on its own merits justifies this kind of argument for why you want to remove the ACB folders from here? I just don't GET that dude. It brings it right back to my earlier comments about why this just feels like you have a personal gripe with ACB fics and are trying to make it sound as if you're making these statements on behalf of everyone in the TCB group admin list.

I say no. No reason, no logic, no action. Give me something more concrete other than 'oh well people were submitting stories to those folders more recently than they were submitting to folders I would want to read stories from'. Because this still sounds like you having a personal vendetta.

The conditions are not fair and reasonable because they are literally being based off fallacious reasoning since all of the supposed qualifications you personally think they should met have already BEEN met and you don't like that fact and on top of that seem designed to set the bar to a height that precludes any new ACB fic from appearing here because they are being held to a standard that seems to have been based on 'oh we're not getting enough stories in our regular folders, so let's not have these other folders that just got some new additions'.

Apologies for the extensive size of this post, but I had to spend a bit of time making sure I worded this the way I wanted to, as I was trying to make sure this was worded as clearly as I could make it.

Also, I don't do TL:DRs on these kind of posts.

2636212
This was a collective decision, not just mine. Or, you know, at least one of the other admins could easily strip me of power, ban me and take this thread down. I'm still talking, so their opinion is fairly self evident - I got the hatchet job.

And I'm getting tired of repeating myself, so one more time: These changes are not up for debate. They are not being proposed. They have been done. (One of them wasn't even really new, this is just us saying we're actually going to be policing it from now on.)

The ACB folder is going because it is a magnet for stories that are non-compliant with the one guideline you'd think we wouldn't have to enforce; since taking action after the fact is pointless and easily taken advantage of with the current story submission system, we have to be proactive on this one. If Knighty ever fixes the way story submission and user feeds interact so that deleting a story has an effect, then the folder may have a shot at returning. This does not prohibit ACB stories, they just need to be filed elsewhere.

Submitted stories must be TCB related. The definition of what makes a story TCB was deliberately left loose for the benefit of the ACB, as the majority of admins insisted that ACB stories still deserved a chance to be here. Take it or leave it. TCB relevance is decided by a triumvirate of admins if it becomes an issue. Try not to make it an issue and you should be fine.

Threads should aim to be TCB related. This is the TCB group, not ACB group with a funny hat on.

Yes, you have to put a bit more effort into an ACB story to make it over the line. That's tough, and so is life. You're sailing a boat north in southerly winds. Get creative. Try setting the scene before you launch into your agenda-laden story, perhaps.

These changes are, as stated in my OP, not retroactive, unless we get a lot of people demanding retroactive application. We are also open to the idea of tightening the requirements further and excluding ACB if that happens to be what people want, although that is doubtful.

I believe everything is as unambiguous as I can get it, so you have several choices in response to these changes:
One, accept the new changes, and carry on.
Two, reject the new changes and leave the TCB group.
Three, convince other admins to flip-flop on their votes and overturn this. There are six active admins, not counting Windchaser (who I believe does not wish to be involved with TCB any more), and majority rules. Do the math.
Four, ask for clarification on something related to this change.

There is a reason this group exists, and it's not to be an older and additional stomping ground for the Alternative Conversion Bureau. If you want to play ball, the onus is on you to start shaping up.

2636212 You know, the more I read of your postings, the more you sound like that nasally whiny kid in the back of the room who has to have everything just so cause mommy said it has to be that way.

Also, if you can't get your point across in 5 sentences or less, you've failed an argument.

Okay, this has gone on long enough. Going to clarify a few things here:

1) The ACB folders are being deleted. The folders. The stories within them will be sorted out appropriately to the new folders once our re-arrangement is complete.

2) There will be new, more stringent standards for fics to be submitted to those new folders, which we have outlined above. Yes, these stories are based on our opinions as admins of what kind of stories should be allowed in the group. That being, as defined above, the story has to be in some way linked with a TCB setting, have well-developed characters and plot, and be competently written. For the counter example, the most recent story submitted: The Conversion Bureau: Amongst the Stars, is only the first of those things because the author said so, which is not a justifiable reason for it to be allowed in the group. Now, a story like, for example: The Price of Generosity, would be a perfect contender for this group. From now on, stapling the TCB setting onto a humanVSpony warfic as the justification for the humans to beat up on the ponies is no longer acceptable. Put some effort into it, and it'll be more likely to get in.

3) This thread was not a "Come and debate our proposed rules for the group moving forward." thread. This is a "After discussion, here are our new rules for moving forward. Carry on with your lives." Taking up the entire thread with your complaining about perceived injustices that have not happened is a waste of everyone's time. Therefore, this thread is locked as of this post.

4) On the changes themselves, I am 100% in agreement with Silvertie and the other administrators. These changes to our submission system and folder organization have long since been overdue, and wil be a net positive for the TCB group as a whole.

Now, the thread is closed, have yourselves a good one.