Fans of Guardian, I Need Your Help · 8:13pm May 29th, 2018
Addendum: After much thought, and consultation with fans, I have submitted to taking the lyrics that precipitated this message down after finding a workaround that somewhat addressed my concerns. However, I am leaving this blog up as it still encapsulates my feelings on this matter, and addresses what I believe is something we fanfiction writers should address. In addition I still encourage people to write the moderators and ask that they consider modifying the rules in a manner that will help prevent these kind of situations. Thank you all for your continued support, and I hope you all continue to enjoy guardian.
Hello everyone Thule117 here, I'm writing this because as the title of this post states, I need your help. As some of you may know I use song lyrics in my story Guardian. Now I never had a problem with that until recently, when a few readers told me that this was a violation of the rules. Then, just the other day, I was contacted by a moderator who flatly told me that the lyrics must be taken down.
Now, anyone who follows my story will undoubtedly be aware that the songs I used are woven heavily into the writing, to the point where removing them is pretty much a death sentence to the entire work. I replied to the moderator and attempted to explain this, but my arguments seem to fall on deaf ears. Here is a copy of our exchange so you can more fully judge the matter for yourselves:
Yesterday
Thule117said:
Dear Meeester,
I write this letter because the comment you left states you're a moderator on the site. Now I am not entirely certain what that entails but I do know it means you are in some way charged with monitoring what goes on in the site.
Which brings me to my question of if you understand what your request of "Please remove the copyrighted lyrics from your story." will mean. Because that is the same as asking me to destroy the story entirely. I literally can't remove the lyrics without that happening.
I did not actually know until recently, that the rule for copyrighted lyrics existed (and by the time I did it was too late to really change the chapters I was writing/had written). More to the point having/enforcing such a rule seems like a waste of time when as it stands, fanfiction itself is technically a violation of copyright law. Not to mention that music lyrics are readily available on innumerable sites at no cost and to no consequence (Including You Tube which has the music in it's entirety). If someone was actively threatening me or the site with a Cease and Desist order I would understand, but as I seriously doubt that is, or will ever be, the case I'm not quite sure why you feel it's worth highlighting me.
I put an immense amount of blood sweat and tears into what I have written and it hardly seems right that I should destroy all of it at a stroke simply because it bends a rule that makes little sense to begin with. I can meet you halfway and promise not to add anymore lyrics to the story, but I can't remove the lyrics already present as you ask.
I understand you are simply doing a job, but asking a creator to destroy their creation because of a single rule seems rather draconian. Not to mention, that I half suspect you are only here because a single annoyed reader decided it would be fun to try to burn everything I worked so hard to create. I could be wrong about that, but it seems likely right now.
So again, I can only offer the compromise of no more lyrics in the story. I hope that is enough, and that we can come to some sort of agreement that will not require me to destroy the thing I have put well over a year of effort into making.
Thank you for your time, Thule117
1 hourago
Meeestersaid:
The rule has been in place since 2011 when the site was created. You will need to remove the lyrics; that is all that has to be removed.
1 hourago
Thule117said:
I understand that, and if I was able to do so without harming the story I would have no qualms about it. I respect that the rule was written long ago, but I did not know the rule existed until a commenter mentioned it and by then it was too late. I know you are only trying to do your job, but I am asking for you to please be a little flexible. I can give you my word that no more song lyrics will be used, but if I removed the lyrics I have already put in the story will not make sense. I didn't set out to break rules I just wanted to write a story that people would love and made a mistake. So I am asking for your understanding as a fellow creator.
I know rules are rules, but sometimes rules need to be balanced with moral compassion. History is full of examples that show we sometimes need to work around or outside what is written, in fact the pilot episodes of season 8 of MLP makes that very point. As I said previously, I have spent nearly a year and a half putting my heart and soul into this story, and I don't want to see it destroyed. Again, I can promise that no more song lyrics will be used in my story from this point onward, and I am asking that you please forgive what is already there.
Again, thank you for your time, Thule117
1 hourago
Meeestersaid:
You're acting as if I have just ripped an arm off over copyrighted lyrics you copy-pasted into your story. Countless stories have had the same issue over the years and have continued on just fine. All that needs to be removed are the lyrics. Or replace them with lyrics of your own or something from a source in public domain (i.e. no copyright).
If the lyrics aren't removed, you will be risking the offending chapters' deletion and a temporary ban for your account.
59 minutesago
Thule117said:
I am trying to work out a compromise, and asking for understanding. Is it really so surprising that I want to save the story I spent so much time writing? If you believe I am being unreasonable then I invite you to read my story for yourself, and if afterward you have a suggestion for removing the lyrics without having to rewrite the story from the ground up, then I am happy to hear it .As to altering the lyrics of the songs, I actually did change some of them around a little so they would fit the story better.
I would love to know why you are willing to tolerate the use of any form of intellectual property with the exception of song lyrics? I can understand not wanting people to artificially inflate their word count, but in a world where any song can be listened to on Youtube or the lyrics found on a myriad of sites all for free, I do not understand why you have such a strong objection otherwise. Why exactly is this worth threatening me over, is there a reason you feel the need to be so black and white?
6 minutesago
Meeestersaid:
The owner of the site is not willing to risk the site as a whole by relying on content-id and copyright holders just simply ignoring that their IP is being used in a single story. Youtube actively removes and/or demonetizes this content when reported or automatically detected. Fanfiction is tolerated because it has existed as long as general fiction has, and lyric sites are seemingly not 'big' enough to warrant any attention.
You are taking this personally and have failed to see the big picture that copyright enforcement affects the entire site, not just you. The rule applies to everyone on the site. We encourage all users to report rule-breaking content.
Thanks.
Now, this brings me to where all of you come in, I would like each of you to (and I cannot emphasise this enough) POLITELY send a message to the moderators and creators of the site, asking the story be allowed to continue. My hope is that we as a group can be persuasive where a single voice is ignored. I'm not looking for you to avenge me, and I don't want the moderator to be demonized for doing their job, I just want you to tell them what my story means to you and to ask them (again: politely) to consider changing the rules.
I'm sure I am not the only one who feels that the "No copyrighted lyrics" rule is a bit to black and white. Certainly there are occasions when it can, and should, be applied, but I firmly believe that some gray areas should be allowed for. We all came here to write and express our love for various copyrighted creative works and songs should be part of that. Yet, this site's argument essentially states that they are willing to accept copyright violation from any source except music, and personally I think that is just a bit absurd. Even the argument that Youtube does trim violated content is flawed. Yes they might suspend content but the existence of Dragon Ball Z Abridged, Joshscorcher, and numberless other channels prove even they bend to the will of the people on occasion. The rule is archaic, and the fear behind it, while not completely unjustified, is made very nearly moot, by the nature of the medium it occupies (the internet).
In the end I just want to preserve a work that I put hundreds of hours into creating, from being ruined because of a rule that originated nearly a decade ago. Because if we don't try to challenge this, then Guardian, along with countless other works like it, could be destroyed in an instant for little to no reason. So I ask all of you to use the power of our combined writing skills to request change, and that the creators of this site allow us at the very least a bit of wiggle room when it comes to song lyrics. If you feel as I do then spread the word to everyone you can reach, every follower and every writer you can contact on this site. Every avalanche begins with a stone, so I am asking that each of you become a stone.
However, I also ask that you be respectful in your efforts, being rude will hurt our argument more than it will help it. Also emphasize that we simply wish the rule changed so it will be a bit more forgiving, we are not trying to erase it entirely. I am not normally in the habit of making waves like this, but I want my story to continue, and so I am asking for any help you can provide.
Thank you all for listening, and for your help, and if my story should still fall. . . then it has been my honor to write for you.
Sincerely, Thule117
Simplest thing to do is just link the song where you want it to start, and just have the story go on as normal. Others have done this, either if they wanted a scene to have a soundtrack, or to specify what song is being sung.
I always felt like the rules for 'no copyright' was weird, considering fanfiction in itself is a HUGE breach of copyright, as every person that writes a fanfic on this site uses characters that belongs to Hasbro.
Saying fanfiction is ok, but posting lyrics is bad makes literally no sense, since they are both breaches of copyright laws.
Mmm that is a draw in my opinion
Why not simply alter the original lyrics and ponyfic them
If i recall that is allowed and don't mess to much
I've absolutely seen links to songs being put into other stories. It's unfortunate that the small snippets of the lyrics are split up amongst the scene's description, which would require a rewrite of the scene with a link being provided to the relevant song beforehand.
I don't really see a good solution to this one however, as the Moderator most likely has his hands tied on this one
4872426
Good thought, but that's actually also technically against the rules, or I might have tried it.
4872460
No one has ever had an issue with videos linked from YouTube before. If it was an issue the option to do such wouldn't even exist .
4872429
I would love to, but I'm not a songwriter and I already did alter some of the lyrics, however in order for them to fall under the radar I think the alterations need to be far more drastic than what I've done.
4872434
I understand the moderator is only following the rules, but I still feel the rules are outdated and need to be scrutinized and discussed with some community input.
4872462
That's a good point, I could have sworn I read something about not linking things in the story itself though, and I'm pretty sure that would still mean rewriting the chapters or possibly the entire story from scratch.
There is one other option you could use:
Have hot links to your user blogs where the remaining bits are, and let the readers open them up in other tabs - or copy-paste them into an offline copy of the story for full-on reading.
That's what I'd do, to avoid having problems - after all, the rule states 'on the story' rather than 'on-site'. It'll be more of an effort towards the reader, but would still be a good way to resolve the situation with the current way you structure lyrics and plot.
However, if you can - do try and make original lyrics in the same vein as the ones you used; or ask someone who knows how to show you the ropes. It'll help improve your overall flexibility, and lessen your reliance on the songs of other artists and situations like this.
That is all I can say - as an offended artist's publiser can indeed bring a lawsuit against a site that harbors lyrics without permission.
Of course, you could always write at the companies responsible for the lyrics and request what is their stance of the use of song lyrics belonging to artists of theirs in fanfiction, and go from there.
I hope you find a solution that works out for you!
PS: I still suggest the links for published blogs on your userpage with the remaining bits.
4872427
fan fiction is 'technically' not a violation of copyright but none the less is heavily monitored by the original creators. Some companies have entire divisions dedicated to monitoring the fandom and fan fictions that are made with its characters. I have always assumed that the rules for 'no copyright' was added to give some leeway in the event of some over zealous company attempted to file a lawsuit against the website. However this rule can only give so much leeway which is why when there is a breach in this rule it is so serous.
This is a losing situation for both parties as there can be no middle ground. The rule is set in place for the safety of both this site and the author but at the same time for an author to change there story so late in the game is hard, especially after so much effort and love has been put in to it. It is like taking your best friends perfectly healthy dog and running over it repeatedly by driving forward and reversing till all that's left is mush then scraping it off the road, placing it in a soup can and handing it to your friend who just watched the whole thing and saying "Happy birthday, here is your gift."
4872473
Actually it 100 % is.
You are literally using characters owned by a company and that is under copyright and using it in your own story.
Just because it is not enforced, does not mean it isn't copyright.
Here is a good discussion on the subject that affects you.
forum discussion
4872479
I admit that I am no expert no this subject and the knowledge I do have is vary limited. Still my point about why the rule exits is some what valid even more so if fan fiction really is a violation in copyright laws.
What I am suggesting, is that we have the site declare that if the original owner of material in a fanfiction any material requests that it be removed, then they start harassing you and deleting your work. Just tell people that fimfiction is under no obligation to protect them, and that they publish at their own risk. The site should position itself as a blackboard on which anything MLP related can be written (with exceptions made for say racism or harassment), but with the understanding that every author does so without any guarantee of protection. That is how I thought these sites worked, and how I believe they should work, because it is a truly neutral stance.
4872480
It is interesting and seems worth checking out, but what I want, is to try to persuade the moderators that enough people enjoy my story to make it worth the risk of allowing. I also think we need to examine the rules of the site and try to make them a little more nuanced. The argument of "no exceptions" is at least as dangerous as "anything goes". Because it creates situations like the one I find myself in, where my options are few and far between, all because I never read the fine print. Not to mention that I looked into songwriters suing fanfiction writers and never found anything, despite quite a bit of looking. In analogous terms, what they are afraid of is that if they point a magnet at the sky it will pull down a world ending meteor. Could it happen? Maybe, but it's so unlikely that worrying about it is pretty ridiculous to me.
4872470
I may end up having to try that if I can't convince the moderators, but it still feels unjust, and I feel that this is something we as a community should try to change.
This is strange as I've seen other stories with literal lyrics and such ripped form other things. (albeit credited in other author notes.) They have not been attacked nor called on. This is a false charge. It is not like you make money off this (like selling the chapters or some such.) so you are not making a sizable profit or any at all, and this isn't exactly outside the realm of public use, as they never put any guards. This stinks of something off.
Kinda smells like this.
4872506
To be perfectly honest, I did know before joining in about the prohibition about using still-protected lyrics except Hasbro/Pony related ones - as I read the conditions and fine-print. Boring, certainly - but one must bother doing that to avoid getting hosed by a contract.
I doubt you'll succeed, as this is one of the ways the makers of this 'blackboard' have ascertained that will ensure the survival of the website in the long-term, as Discography Producers are actually touchy with the way their property is employed. Thus, if you are willing to test your chances, write to the owners of the songs, and request permission to use their songs.
If they are generous, they'll give you a reply of permission - along with a plethora of fine-print that'll see to it that you get hosed if you don't bother to read it. If not, they'll tell you outright that any use of their property will be met with a lawsuit or a C&D letter. Of course, if you have permission, you can send a copy to the moderators - and with that backup, your story won't be bothered... for that one song. Rinse and repeat for the other ones.
Check the link I provided - apparently, parody is actually protected. So would be using poems or songs that aren't current - so those could be a possible venue for some of the more... heart-felt songs employed.
Who knows? Maybe you'll come out learning how to write songs - which is a step further than most of us can achieve.
4872511
Then why exactly would the moderator write what they did? I was under the impression that they held the power to delete any story that violates the rules. Granted they did say "at risk of" as opposed to "Will be" but I think that was just because he was giving me a chance to alter the story (assuming that were possible).
4872526
While am not sure of this websites rules or workings, the larger law the actual copyright laws, normally only protect from the use in a financial way or one that could be harmful. (excluding press or reviews of course.) though honestly, I think this is just someone being an ass and calling it out. Moderator isn't sure but errs on the side of caution. Understandable. Just sucks and I may have used words a bit wrong in my previous commit. Though as I understand most fanfiction and freestyle writing is generally considered safe, music as well so long as you don't make money off this, again through the site rules elude me, and they do make money off the website so they themselves may be targetted depending on the judge or court so they are just covering themselves. Sorry, am not sure if I can help, kinda sucks I just got into this story just three days ago.
4872531
I may still be able to save it, I decided to try FTR2017's trick while I try to persuade them.
4872536
From the messages, the stance is clear - you won't move them, much less persuade them - as this can indeed end up in trouble for the owners of the site due to the use of publicity plus the moving of funds to pay up the bills. Which is something that a non-caring judge will take into account against the administrators.
A final alternative would be to host the song-parts elsewhere, gdocs in read-only mode with direct link to the bits where the songs happen.
Not sure if it works legally - but you can still give it a try. For future releases and works, try using public domain songs.
I have read a lot of stories that have used copyrighted lyrics post-2011 which still contain these lyrics that haven't gotten any moderator attention, so I don't think the moderator has his hands tied at all. If it were really as big of an issue as they make it out to be, it'd be enforced better.
This is a tricky business. Not sure if the lyric can be considered 'enough similarity' as the music itself. But if it does not, maybe, you can tweak the lyric so it would have the same meaning but different wording? This is one of the way to write essay with paragraph quoted from another piece.
This is actually a big problem and the simplest way to solve it would be to put a disclamer now wether this would work is questionable.
4872558
The moderators are swamped with too many submissions. I imagine they only bother with those that are actually popular enough to be noticed by zealous law-abiding individuals.
4872536
The blog you just posted died on me - so I'll copy my answer to you here:
From the Rules:
These have been quoted from the Rules tab.
I hope the suggestion for removing lyrics helps a bit, and hopefully there won't be a need for further changes in your story. Just because we don't agree with it doesn't remove the fact that it is a necessary evil, lest we lose the site to a lawsuit.
Just try to consider how to make the changes in future chapters to comply with the rules.
As a personal thought, I didn't vocalize it - but now that this situation arose, I feel the freedom to speak it out: I have found those songs that are 'ours' to not match 'Derran's' life as far as it has been shown. And while the chosen songs do have a message, I'd heartily advice towards seeing if you can get an actual lyricist to chip in and replace them with songs more adecuate to Derran's life and backstory.
Just letting you know, and I hope that future projects won't meet trouble!
4872536
And concerning the PM, yeah - I did make such a suggestion, but what the mod says goes. Sorry for that trouble, by the way.
I personally didn't see it coming, despite having read the rules. At least I know now that such a loophole doesn't exist.
Hope my PM reply helps you somehow into reworking those bits into something better than what they currently have.
Don't give up!
i seen stories having "copyrighted" lyrics in em which had zero problems being there.
tho here is a suggestion you could do without having to change much.
add a little note a the top of the chapter about the lyric used and giving credit to the ones who made the song with said lyric.
if that doesnt work then if removing the lyrics add a link to the song
4872736
4872558
4872511
If you know of any stories that feature copyrighted lyrics, please do send them our way. We're not trying to single out any particular author, but there are over a hundred thousand stories on this site and we currently have eight members of staff who work on this sort of thing, so naturally some may slip through the cracks.
I look forward to seeing your reports
dont take me wrong I love your story but if Hasbro gets wind of this and believes that this could give them bad press they might take legal actions and that would hurt everyone. so just ad a "listen to song" in the text and when something happens while the song is playing like in the middle just ad the sentence before your writing and ad the first sentence after like a bookmark for the song.
4872855
I think you are missing the point of this whole post. Which is that the rules that govern the use of song lyrics in stories, make no sense and need to be changed. Thus far I have not heard a single argument other than "it is wrong because we say so." as justification for the site's stance. The questions I had for the moderators going largely unanswered. If you want people to obey a rule you need to justify the rule's existence, thus far fimfiction has failed to do this, only giving weak excuses. If you have a reason why we should turn people in for being creative, one that holds up to scrutiny, I would love to hear it.
4873637
We are not changing the rules for you. Meeester has answered the questions you've asked, but you seem to keep repeating them anyway, so I'll give you one final reason:
The reason why we care about music copyright more than any other kind is that the music industry has poured billions of dollars into hunting down people who break their copyright. Everything you hear about youtube getting into trouble for copyright reasons is because of music industry lobbies.
Text gets a pass cos nobody gives a shit. Video/visual art mostly gets away with it, with a few exceptions when things get too big (Jananimations, Fighting is Magic, etc.) Music copyrights are enforced with an iron fist.
Seeing as this is a site about text, and we don't want this site to get kicked into the dirt by people with lots of money, we don't allow copyrighted lyrics.
If the people were being creative, then they would use their own music/songs/whatever, not copy lyrics verbatim.
4873669
Charming, but if that's true, would you mind sighting for me an example of an occasion when a fanfiction writer was brought to court over putting written lyrics to a song in their work? I can't seem to find one. You also seem to be approaching this as if I am the only person who feels this way, I'm not entirely sure that's accurate. If I really am the only person who has ever complained about this then fine, I see no reason why you should bend over for just me. However the whole point of this was to persuade as a collective, certainly I am arguing because my story is at stake, but also because I know their are countless other stories that stand to be ruined if nothing is done.
This the principle of protest, I hope to unite like minded people behind a common cause. I got hurt by this rule and I want to rally people to try to change it. You can still say no, but are you really saying I can't still try? Pretty sure whenever someone started a movement to change something there was at least a few guys who said "We aren't changing the rules just for you." but in some cases the rules were eventually changed anyway. Now maybe my voice will eventually fade away, that has certainly happened before and will happen again, but then again, maybe it won't.
Oh, and if I am "repeating myself", that is because that's how protests are done, you keep arguing your point until it is disproven to your satisfaction, or things change.
4873732
Citing*
And there are none, because literally every fiction website bans lyrics. Even Wattpad, and that place is a lawless hellhole.
4873775
Sorry for the misspelling. However that argument's logic is rather absurd. Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor? It states that the simplest solution is usually correct, and the simplest solution here, is that record companies don't care. If you were correct and they did care, there likely would be at least one court precedent on record, yet you freely admit there is not. So the question becomes: how do you know it won't work if no one has ever tried?
You could I suppose, just as fairly say I have no proof it wouldn't occur, and that it is unfair of me to ask that the site take the risk just to see what happens, but then you already have taken the risk. There are countless stories on the site that have unapproved lyrics in them and if the music industry is as unforgiving as you say, then the only logical reason no one has been sued on this site yet, is that the music industry in fact does not care.
4873811
I'm familiar with Occam's razor, but it doesn't apply here. Because the music industry kicks the crap out of every other website that allows users to pull that stuff, so why on earth would we allow it?
There are not.
People claim to see lyrics in other stories, but so far, I've yet to see a single person provide evidence.
Regardless, this argument is going nowhere. We are not changing the rules to let you copy lyrics into your stories.
4873815
You speak of proof when you yourself have none, that's a little hypocritical don't you think? What are these "other websites?" if they are so relevant to this conversation then list a few of them off. As to why no one has told you where to find these other stories, it is because we don't feel like hurting authors we don't believe are doing anything wrong. You are essentially asking: Why didn't you report your best friend for having an ounce of weed that one time?
And again, you say the rules will never change, but I say I am still going to try. You might be right, but I still have a right to argue my case and attempt to change things.
4873823
Have you been living under a rock? Grooveshark shut down, countless guitar tab sites removed, dozens of other sites being removed? Youtube has deleted literally thousands of accounts for uploading copyrighted music. Both Youtube and Twitch will mute your stream/video if its algorithms detect copyrighted music. The fact that they have had to program algorithms to detect copyrighted music shows how seriously they take this.
Seriously, how have you managed to ignore all this happening? It's been going on for decades.
And give whatever excuses you want, you've yet to link a single story that features copyrighted music.
For real, you have no chance of changing this rule. Save us all some time.
4873829
None of the so called "proof" you provided is exactly relevant here. Grooveshark stole the music in its entirety, it didn't just have the lyrics written. The guitar tab article only reminds us that all fan works have no guaranteed protection under the law (not even going into the fact that no one tried to fight the industry so a ruling was never reached, neither did Grooveshark for that matter, they settled, and prior to that they actually won a case brought on similar grounds).
And the court violations article was about counterfeiting and illegal file sharing, not merely copyright infringement (and the cases still have not had an actual verdict reached in court so we don't actually know if/how many, broke the law). Oh, and perhaps most damning of all, not one of these is even remotely similar to fanfiction, with the exception that on featured the word "fan" or "copyright" in them. So all you proved is that other people got hurt for doing other things.
Look, it's obvious I am not going to persuade you, and you are never going to convince me, so I am just going to say agree to disagree, and bow out for the night.
4873872
Grooveshark breached copyright. You copying the lyrics verbatim is breaching copyright.
You wanna know how many lyric websites have been shut down over the years? Cos it's a lot.