downvotes · 10:19pm Sep 19th, 2020
For some reason, on August 23 and again on September 10, someone went through my entire story collection and hit downvote on (almost) everything without reading the stories.
Now, I can rationalise that away with a wave of the hand; those aren't "real" downvotes, these people just did that because they disliked me for whatever reason. (Pro tip, if I've done something to annoy you, but you don't tell me what it is, I'm probably going to do it again.) But it still steams my clams that readers now see either one or two downvotes on stories which previously had 0.
Those stories didn't deserve that. It might be ludicrously petty - and yes, I'm fully aware of the irony that by talking about it, I'm granting them the attention they presumably wanted - but I was proud of those 0s, and now they're gone forever, on the whim of someone who didn't even bother to read them.
(I say "one or two downvotes", because on each occasion the mystery downvoter seems to have lost interest before clicking all fifteen stories. Or maybe Mx August actually really just prefers my Early Shame "latex trilogy" of thinly-veiled RP rewrite clop stories (since despite actually being terrible, those were inexplicably only hit in the September version), and our August voter just feels like I lost my way with all this heartfelt nonsense, and this is some kind of highly oblique protest against my username-betraying change in direction. Who knows? Not me, because they never said anything. But I digress.)
The extra irony of the August 23 one was that not long before it happened, I'd actually requested to delete this account, and so it kind of felt like our downvoter had just wasted their time in a manner akin to some graffiti artist spending hours elaborately tagging a derelict building only to turn round and watch it being knocked down - but then I was just struck by how awful it would be if they felt like the deletion was somehow because of them (he said, writing an entire blog post about it), so I cancelled the request.
(This isn't some poorly-conceived plea for attention and sympathy - friends already talked me out of it and the account will stay, for what it's worth.)
So, yeah, that brings y'all up to speed, and I'm still here. But what I really want to ask is this: What do you all think about the downvote function, and specifically the way it doesn't need you to read a story before using it?
...Is there any reason for that?
It doesn't bug me. What really bugs me is that adding a story to your favorites doesn't automatically upvote it, like with images on derpi. Upvotes and downvotes actually impact a story's rating. Faves don't. If people use a favorite shelf for other reasons, okay whatever, but that doesn't change favorites should also upvote the story. I'm not kidding when I say I'd have like triple as many upvotes on most of my stories if adding them to favorites would bring the vote up one with each add. Many writers would struggle with getting good ratings on stories a lot less if this were a site feature. My stories often have really low ratings because many readers forget to upvote or seem to think that faves mean more to the site.
If you've got a lot of upvotes on your story, the one or two downvote trolls don't really matter. If you are aware that the downvotes are trolls, then don't put so much weight on them. However people vote doesn't change whatever you wrote down on the page.
5359014
Huh, I never really thought of that. Good to know.
5359014
Yeah, but that's maybe the subject for another blog. Anyway I didn't, and I'm still here, so...
I think that's the key, really - from what I've seen, I firmly believe a lot of people use the favourites shelf as a kind of bookmark/Read it Later feature, even though the site already has that functionality separately. And yeah, same, I regularly get 3, 4, 5 favourites for every upvote.
5359041
I mean, I know that objectively - and, frankly, I don't know why I'm meant to take someone's opinion seriously if they can't be arsed saying why they didn't like something (and where the reason's not obvious - I don't begrudge downvotes on my clop stories, for instance, because I know that just comes with the territory!) - but it's still hard to ignore in practice. It's just kind of a glaring reminder, seeing that sliver of red on the bar, forcing us to leave what is essentially an act of vandalism visible and uncorrected when I was genuinely proud of having stories that had 0 downvotes. But like I said before, I know it's petty, and this post is probably squarely in "feeding the trolls" territory...!
5359041
Yeah, faves are for you to keep track of. Upvotes are for authors and readers. Comments are for everyone.
5359090
Tracking is more helpful than faves because those who track a story will be notified of blog posts tagged with that story. Faves seem fairly useless in comparison.
5359094
You can edit the settings of the default bookshelves so that every shelf can be a tracking shelf if you want.
5359089
I wish site staff were inclined to fix it, but they don't really seem interested in updates relevant to reading/writing aspects of the site.
I've experienced mass downvoting six or so times, usually when I write something edgy. Doesn't surprise me anymore, but it annoys me when my rare e rated fics were hit too.
I had something similar happen after publishing the controversial Jailhouse Rock - controversial because, gasp, it was an Equestria Girls fic in which I warned people in advance I had (at that point in time) not actually watched the movies, just picked details and clips up second-hand.
This was such an unspeakable crime that it got downvote-bombed itself before I received any evidence that, well, anyone was actually reading and critiquing it (whereupon, surprise surprise, the downvote-bombing stopped).
Then it and the prior twenty fics mysteriously simultaneously received downvotes too (presumably the unseen force or forces behind the belligerent barrage suddenly gave up upon realizing I had way, way, waaay more fics than that.). Including, yes, ones that had hitherto been pure upvote.
Well, I was a little miffed, to be honest, and still am to an extent, because some of those fics had great reception otherwise. I mean, you try to presume goodwill and intelligence in your fellow users: even when someone doesn't like something I did, I value it immensely if they can tell me about it civilly and respectfully.
I mean, I presume the person or persons who did it were unintelligent and lacked self-control, if they could only rise to being about as articulate and thoughtful as a grunting ape slapping a button and screeching at it. And even that's an insult to the fascinating intelligence of real apes.
It's not like I received any evidence they'd even read the fics. Ultimately, the whole downvote business was just a waste of time.
I wouldn't call it feeding the trolls. It's more acknowledging you sometimes get the nuisance of little wasps at a picnic.
Frankly, it should be pretty obvious I don't care for downvotes one bit, neither giving nor receiving. As far as giving goes, I value the maxim "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
Giving a downvote is lazy: if I didn't like something about a fic I invested time and energy into reading, I'd rather articulate in a comment why I had a bad time with it in the hopes that the comment proves useful to the author or to passersby.
Or I'd rather just admit to myself it's simply not my cup of tea and leave quietly. On those rare occasions when I've lapsed and been enraged enough to deliver one, I've usually regretted it and undone it not long after, because why let stupid momentary anger dictate personal policy?
Receiving a downvote is completely useless because it doesn't tell me where the problem lay, or even if there was a problem at all and the downvoter's just one of many species of Internet idiot.
And true, this is to say nothing of the little sting of getting one: upvotes are equally uninformative, but at least they have the bias of indicating you're doing fine and can continue as you are. Plus they're, well, nice. And friendly, that thing the show's supposed to be about. The only reason I give any ground to voting at all is purely because an upvote can simply cheer me up.
If I were you, I'd treat these meaningless downvotes with the contempt they deserve and focus on something intelligible you can actually work on for your craft. Solid, dependable progress.
Sadly it's 'normal,' welcome to the light version of 'cancel culture' where some people are immature enough to downvote a story to show the writer 'who's the boss!' All you have to do is say something they don't like in a blog or comment or on Discord. I've seen it happen many times. I wouldn't worry about it.
... especially since this is only the tip of an iceberg. Some people want to play funny police and completely cancel other users for the alleged stuff they've done off-site. I know of at least one user allegedly raped her boyfriend (her story was different, of course). There was no conviction or anything (as far as I know), just word against word, but many high-profile users tried to get her off the site anyway (and still do). That's mostly the same crowd who caused the whole 'cancel Aryanne
!' debacle, go figure... Thankfully, knighty showed them the finger and said he won't be playing the judge (especially since she wasn't convicted of anything). I hope it will stay that way.
So yeah, downvotes are really nothing compared to disgusting things some other people try to pull here - don't worry about them
Ah, sorry about that. It seems to just be one of those things that happens, unfortunately.
Oh, dear! I'm sorry about whatever was leading to the account deletion too! I hope whatever it is has improved, and I'm glad friends talked you out of it.
"What do you all think about the downvote function, and specifically the way it doesn't need you to read a story before using it?"
Well, I don't really see a way to avoid the latter, if the function is to be there at all. How is the website supposed to check that the voter has read the story, after all, that both doesn't significantly inconvenience non-bad-actors and doesn't just consist of one extra box click or the like?
As for the former, on stories... I'm not sure. I've found it useful, but in addition to having no stories posted here myself, I use it very sparingly (I think maybe three times in the over eight years I've been on here?), and I've left explanatory comments (the only specific story I remember downvoting, for instance, led to a good conversation with the author, who I've read a lot of work from since and who is probably now among my top favorite authors overall, not just in terms of fanfiction; as I recall, though, my downvote is still on that story).
It's something open to abuse, though, as you and certainly not just you have observed. Overall, I'm inclined to leave it in place, I think, since the bad actors hopefully aren't too difficult to ignore (though, again, no stories up here myself...) and valid uses can be very useful, but it is a pity the abuses are there.
5359089
"And yeah, same, I regularly get 3, 4, 5 favourites for every upvote."
Huh. Personally, I think I've upvoted basically every story I've favourited (though some of them have ratings disabled), but there are some stories I've deliberately upvoted but not favourited, generally because of something like finding them well enough executed that they seemed worthy of the upvote but not of enough interest to me for me to want to favourite them.
I used to have that. I used to get a downvote almost instantly on every story I posted, and I thought that it was probably some sad, lonely man who I’d somehow offended (there were plenty of opportunities, I’ll admit), awake it his parent’s basement, staring at the screen and constantly hitting ‘refresh’ until he saw a new fic of mine appear on the new stories list.
Cackling like a madman, he hit the downvote button, perhaps considering how I’d be like him, constantly refreshing my own browser and maybe, just maybe, reconsidering what I do when that red downvote appeared.
And then one day, he was gone.
Maybe it was in One-Shot-Ober, 31 fics in 31 days and he just couldn’t keep up any more. I kind of feel for him; that was intense. Even my pre-readers had trouble keeping up.
Or maybe he made it past that, I don’t know. But whatever the case, I finally posted enough new content that even he couldn’t keep up. Was it a victory? Was it the last stand of a desperate man? Or was it a tidal wave of non-consequential fics finally washing over his defense? I don’t know. I don’t know who he was, and I never will.
As performers, we put ourselves out on stage for the pleasure of the people, and not all the people will know or understand what it is we’re doing. Some of them will surely be trolls, some of them will be genuinely displeased with our work. Most of them will be sort of ‘meh’; it was a thing they read.
And some of them, it will strike deep in their heart.
One of my (many) projects turned into an epic and while most people were along for the ride, there were some who it hit on a deeper level, some who really got it, some who it honestly affected their life--maybe in a little way, maybe in a big way. And I don’t think I’m alone in that; Tom Scott did a video on that subject, and I hang out with the dude who wrote My Little Dashie, who’s also brought it up before. Heck, I admitted to Somber once that I was in a bad place and one of his fics helped bring me out. . . .
The point is, yeah, you’ve got that jerk who’s got a stick up his butt and for whatever reason, you’re his target today, and it’s not that much effort to click through your catalog and toss downvote bombs left and right. And I get it that it sucks when you’ve got something that was that perfect X to 0 ratio and then he came along wrecking up the place; I’ve been there. I’ve been downvote bombed out of the feature box, and I’ve seen the Discord where people were trying to figure out if I broke a rule and they could get me banned (I didn’t, so suck it, losers).
The point is, however many wanna be trolls you’ve got skulking in the basement, rubbing their hands together and then clicking the downvote button, you’ve still got at least one person who thinks that You Betcha! is the best Rainbow Rocks story written to date, full stop. Maybe that person isn’t always so great at commenting, or letting you know that he’s read it a half dozen or maybe a full dozen times, and that maybe every time he does, he has to wipe away a few tears of pride.
I figure I’ve gone on long enough here that I need a concluding paragraph, and since I not only suck at commenting, but also at conclusions, have Spiderman saying it as well as I ever could:
i.ytimg.com/vi/W3abMUH_P1E/maxresdefault.jpg
(YouTube link, in case you need it for reasons)
5360998
Good perspective and comments! And... Gosh. I'm really quite touched by that You Betcha! comment, so thank you very much for saying so.
5361428
It’s too easy sometimes to get focused on the negatives, and forget about the positives. That’s just human nature. And yeah it sucks when you’ve got a perfect score and some flint-hearted asshole comes along and wrecks that, but looking at You Betcha, you’ve got two people who didn’t like it for whatever reason, and 157 people who did like it enough to leave an upvote, you’ve got an EqD feature (in fact, I think you’ve got more EqD features than I do), you’ve got good reviews and ratings on that story.
Plus, you can’t please everybody. I’ve gotten plenty of downvotes from people who expected something that didn’t happen in the story, for example, in some cases those people tragically missed the point, but what can you do? I figure that you can’t please everyone, and there are plenty of fics on this site--heck, I’ve recommended other author’s fics to people who didn’t like one of mine before. And I’ve seen people get bent out of shape over the weirdest shit, like you give a specific mention of how tall a pony is compared to a human and suddenly somebody’s got charts and graphs and of course a big shiny downvote.
One other thing that you might want to consider:
I f
ing hate it when people do that. Or wipe out all their stories, or vanish without a trace . . .
Now, I know you don’t owe me anything, and of course it’s your account and you can do whatever the hell you want with it. And you might have legit reasons for wanting to roll up the carpet and vanish as much as you can when things are already out there on the internet, and that’s none of my business. But when there’s a story that touched me, one that I want to return to, and suddenly it’s gone, that makes me sad, and maybe I’m not the only one. I know that every now and then, somebody comments on a story I published years and years ago, or adds it to their favorites, or what have you.
I think that creating art makes the world a better place, and I think that even if you need to move on, you should leave your art behind for the benefits of those who follow along.
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5361741
On the deletion thing - I just want to be clear to everyone reading, I'm not going to be deleting the account. That was already off the table before I posted. Friends made much the same points you did, i.e. that whatever my own personal issues, once the stories are out there they no longer completely belong to me any more, and I have a responsibility not to take away something that meant something to someone, even if I never log on again. I think I agree with that. So, whatever else, the account will still be here!
As for that "whatever else" - I want to say again, I'm really moved by you (and everyone else who did) saying such nice things. I don't have much to say in response besides a very heartfelt and sheepish "thank you", but it was - is - very much appreciated.
5362843
I'm fairly certain everybody at some time and for a period of time gets that sort of voting. I know I've gotten revenge thumbs downs before and it really wasn't for anything I thought was a big deal. What was curious though ... when I deleted the comment all of a sudden that thumbs down disappeared/changed as well.
What really matters is if you like what you did. After that things will be whatever they are going to be.
Oh look, the same thing happened again. Someone very obviously looking for an excuse to be nasty randomly gave my last 49 stories downvotes within the last few hours. <sarcasm>Oh no, brought down by my own hubris, I've learned my lesson, I will never do whatever it was that upset them ever again, boy I'm learning a lot today from this articulate genius.</sarcasm>
I'd be upset, but the sheer pointlessly hostile idiocy of it is more laughably sad to watch than anything. Like someone had an embarrassing mental breakdown over their keyboard, or something.
Ah well, never waste an opportunity for fun, I say.