“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

- C.S. Lewis

Don't patronize Jesus by saying 'He wasn't God, but he was nice guy who did and said nice things.' (I could so make a reference to a certain "Christian" denomination right now, but I'll hold my tongue.)

I for one believe him to be Lord... but if he wasn't lord he was either completely insane or the greatest liar of all time.

Make your pick: Is Jesus, Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

1397302

Make your pick: Is Jesus, Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

I feel that this is rhetorical.

To accept Jesus is to accept responsibility.

In America you can successfully sue McDonalds for coffee you spilled on yourself because of your poor driving.

See the connection?

1397325 Actually I was trying to be as serious as possible, but to someone who is cemented in their believes it... might actually sound like that...

1397349 Don't worry, I was just fooling around.
Although the question really is a bit rhetorical for me.

1397338...W-...wha....What? What does that have to do with anything I posted?

1397403

You ask why people patronize Jesus. Or rather what way they see him as.

To accept Jesus is to accept the responsibilities of being a Christian.

America's culture seems to revolve around blaming other people for your own problems.

Thus, at least in America, some people patronize Jesus because they don't want accept the responsibility that comes with accepting him a God.

Sorry, I seem to have the ability to bounce around topics in ways that some people don't. A simple "could you please repeat that more clearly" would have been more appropriate (and Christian) then your response though...

1397302 Jesus was a revolutionary man like Buddha before him, and I believe that he was the Messiah. Their just too many sighs that point too him as the one. He also preformed miracles too prove his divinity too others. I believe him to be the Messiah , and he died on the cross so that humanity may see the light of God.

1397559

"You ask why people patronize Jesus. Or rather what way they see him as."

Yes, you're doing good so far...

"To accept Jesus is to accept the responsibilities of being a Christian."

Did you even read what I posted --->1397302<--- This blog has nothing to do with accepting responsibility as a Christian, it has to do with Jesus, the guy, and who he was. I'm not talking about American culture or about blaming others for your own problems. I'm talking about a historical topic on a historical and religious figure...Jesus, not responsibilities.

I'm sorry, man, I'm not trying to hurt you or offend your feelings. I'm just trying to get you to stay on topic.

dis thread lel

1397678 I'm going to ask you to Clarify. You just compared a man who called himself God (Jesus), to a "revolutionary" like Buddha. Messiah simply means the one who is prophesied to deliver the Jewish nation and the Savior of mankind.

Now think about this carefully, Can you really say Jesus = Buddha? If so, then throw your Bible away, because there is a liar in it.

1397803 You read too much into my statement. Buddha had some good ideas, but he wasn't the Messiah.

1397678

Jesus was a revolutionary man like Buddha before him, and I believe that he was the Messiah. Their just too many sighs that point too him as the one. He also preformed miracles too prove his divinity too others. I believe him to be the Messiah , and he died on the cross so that humanity may see the light of God.

Jesus was a revolutionary man like Buddha before him, and I believe that he was the Messiah. THERE ARE just too many SIGNS that point TO him as the one. He also PERFORMED miracles TO prove his divinity TO others. I believe him to be the Messiah , and he died on the cross so that humanity may see the light of God.

1397795 My brain exploded from sheer wisdom.

1397848 So, Jesus is God? ..Yes...? ..No...? I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get straight answers my friend.

1397880

1397961
We do not mock your messiah, do not mock ours.

1397961 Umm? Yes?

1397988 I can't tell if this is a joke or not. I hate not having voice inflections on the interwebs.

1398054 Like I said, straight answers.

Patronize Jesus?

1398061
Grammar is never a joke.

1398080 Read C.S. Lewis' quote and find out, you'll find the topic of discussion is within those borders, not the title of the blog. Also, looking up the definition of "Patronize" via dictionary or Google might be useful.

1398107 That it is nawt.

1398154
Yeah, I read the quote, and I fucking know what the word patronize means.

Although what you're saying is somewhat irrational.

I think you could use a visit to this website to gather your thoughts.

1398192 What did I just experience...?

1398245
You SHOULD have just read a list of calming music to listen to.

1398255 It wasn't. I think it was a picture of that doll from Saw (or something... didn't get a good look) and some screamo music was playing while lights flashed...

I thought you were being ironic by linking to it, but now I see the calm music list. (For a moment, I fell through the cracks into the weird part of the Internet...)

1398308
Wow, that's reaaaaly weird.

1398322 1398255 1398245 1398192 1398154 1397795 1397325

Í̡̭̖̞͎̬͙͓̟̺͓̗͠͝t̥̟͈̠̣̗̫̠̹̩̀́͢͡ ̫̳̤̟́͝͡a̸̧͢҉̧̹̳̤͎͙̘͍͇̦̘̭̲͇p̶̨͕̜̝̻͕͕̭̹̰͜p̶̮̗̞̬͉͕͉̼͍̠̪̦͉͠ͅŕ̨͙̖̭̤̣͍̩̖̣͔̙͈͘͜͝ó̷̙͓̝͇̻̳͔͇̼͔̙͇̦͖͕̕͞á̴̡̱̫̦̠c̶̢̤̪͙̱̝̤̥̘̯̰͕͉̻̕͢͞h̷̶̳͖͉̪é̴̛̬̲̥͚͢͢s͔̺̺̰͕̰͚̻̹͔̀́͢͟.͏̷̣̬̟̱̠̟̖̮̥̠͉͉͓́͞
͠҉̵͏̺͉̣͕͓͙̭̦͓̘̕ͅͅ
̨͚̜̥̘̘̪̬̠̪͓̯͚͎̘̬̕C̸̴̗͚͕͓̭͓̱̠̠̤̯ͅĺ̴̗̝͓͓̲͍o͢͢͜͏̻̬͓̖̺̗͕̫̯͍̖̤̦̗̙̝͝s̷̭͖̤̰̲͎͕̭̭̬̦̳̺̞͇͔͙͡͡͝ͅe̛͏̴̜̮̻̣̼ŗ̷̶̺̙̣͎̟̟̩̙͜ ̤̬̙̤̺̖̺̻͎͞ͅà͏͖͖̯̱͉͎̻̣̰̯̦̘̹̯̬̫ń̡͕͚͚̥̗̖̯͘ḑ̸̷͚̺̙̯͔̦̦̤́͟ ̵̸̵̷̱̖̟̫̖͙̪͍̳͢ç̛̼̭̞͚̺̘̰͇̺͕̺̪͎̗̙̩̺̦͠l̘̜̼̰̦̠̱͈̗͉̩̜̀͘͢o͢͏̝͕̹̯̦̜̝̖̫̜̱̭̯̺̼̝͔ͅs҉͍͍͔̜̳͔̘̪̳̱̺̻̹̞̟͖͉e̷͚̜̮̰̦̟̖̺͎̪̙̞͎͚̞̺͝͡ͅr̵̺͍̰̘̫̻͙̮͕̳̕͠.̶̜͈̩̞̳̟͎̥̝̜̺̪͕̲̻͍
̡͙̮͉̬̼̭̳̟̀͜
̴҉̸͏̴̟̩͕͓̦̻̰̭̼̘̙͍̱̱͎̗I̵̷̢̨̙̫̞͚̙͇̲̝̘̺̥͕̫̦̫̻͞ṱ̷̛͓͕̫͍̦̗͉̮̝͓̪͓͝ ̴̵̩̠̩̯̫̘c̷̛̰̫̦͉̞͈̥̩̖̠͙̼̲̱̜͕̞͓̜̀o̢̫̱̝̹̫̩̮̮̮̤͓͍̘̕͠m̢̧̛̟̥̟̭̙̥͇͈͓͍̣̖̜̪͝͝e͢͏̻̖̲̖͎̣̝̼͙͚͕̖̯̻̥̘̼͡s̨̢͉̬̙̭̟̼.̛̲̩̮̻̦̟̠
̨̟͈̼̘͚͖̭̭̪̖̭͡
̡̝̼̞̯̜̦̱̯̗̥̝̀I̴̷̬͔̩̬͖͇͢͞͡t̶͏̠̝͙̦̬͍̩͖̗͔͚̤̩̤̘̩ͅ'͕̬̮̥̺̤̙̻͓̣̪͜s̴̡̧͎̲̦̮͚̥̱̘̀͢ ̵̛̝̯͎̭̙̠̯͘h̢̞̦̳̙̝̹͕̭̻̖̠̫͚̼̱̲̙̬͕͠e͠͏͔̰̟̫̭̲̳͖͉͔r̷̡̧͍̰͙̲̞̺͞͡ę̩̟͈͈̣̣̤̘̺̱̖̀͞.͞҉̭̘̫̹

1398192 Irrational? How so? You don't need to write me an essay, just a short summary of why you think what I posted has an illogical or irrational nature will suffice, I do enjoy reading.

Also, I find it ironic that you're telling me to calm down whilst using profanity to do so.

1397302

This thread:

and yes I believe we need to make this distinction. After all in Gospel of Luke said " he who isn't against us is for us." I.E there is no middle ground. Also plenty of non-christains can say they respect Jesus as a good moral teacher. Then what is difference between us Christians and them?

1398782 D'aww, stop it you.

1398854

1397713

Then I guess you not understanding what I"m trying to say. You ask people if they accept Jesus. If you accept Jesus then you accept being Christian. There is no middle ground. If you accept being a Christian, then you accept the responsibilities that come with it. Doing good works and faith, etc. As an American citizen I know a little bit about the overall culture that permeates the country. In this country it seems that one's problems are because of someone else. Thus I think that is why Christianity is under attack in the USA by people who don't like what we stand for.

It is relevant to your topic. You speak of not patronizing Jesus. That you must either accept him as a God, Liar/Crazy, or Evil.

Following the inverse of what I typed above, I think that some Americans think that Jesus is Liar/Crazy because of their mentality of not taking responsibility. That is because to accept Jesus is to also accept Christianity, there being no middle ground.

Thus this is why I think, that at least in America, Jesus is sometimes considered a Liar, Crazy, or Evil.

If you can't understand what I'm trying to say then I'll just stop posting.

Now, if you don't like me giving an opinion on my own country and prefer to simply listen to my personal belief, read my first post again.

Well, I have to say that this is an interesting thread. But sadly there is some things that needs to be pointed out:

1397403

A simple "could you please repeat that more clearly" would have been more appropriate (and Christian) then your response though...

I share Maverick Frond view: you were quite rude with that remark. As I saw in some others. Please be a bit more nice to others.

1397795

Don't spam. Please add some more content to your posts.

1398080

Tone down your words a bit. Profanity is frowned down around here, as it's listed in the rules.

1397880

Don't grammar nazi. If you want to post, please add something relevant to the discussion.

---
That is all. Please carry on.

I don't agree at all.

Jesus said some things that were pretty neat. Most of them were probably said before, and most of them probably were said better at some point, but that is besides the point. Jesus preached a lot of things people relate to regardless of what their religious beliefs are.

So what if the man was crazy or a liar? Islam includes as one of their fundamental tenets charity. The belief the well of Muslims should share their wealth with those that are less fortunate, which I believe goes very neatly with the teachings of Jesus. Muhammed claimed the tenets of Islam, displayed in the Koran were dictated to him directly by god. Presumably none of you accept this. Does that change the fundamental wisdom of the principle of charity?

1399602 Think of it like this... If the Bible is really the perfect written word of God shouldn't it all be true? This would include Jesus' quotes' where he says that he is the self anointed one, (I Am) I.e. God. If the Bible is not 100% accurate, then it loses its merit, the same goes for Jesus.

The late Christopher Hitchens even recognized this.

1399535 Based on this comment, I think you get...

1399577 Forgive me Father, for I have sinned.

1401609

Ah, that was just a warning, like at that other time. Just put it in your heart and it will be fine.

1401595
Jesus claims to divinity are lost, the value of his teachings are not.

What you are doing here is basically a reverse appeal to authority. Jesus could have been completely mad, that does not automatically make everything Jesus said wrong.

If you don't believe me then consider this: Lets say Jesus really was mad. That he was not the son of god. If he at some point had said that the sky was blue, would you stop believing the sky is blue?

I seriously doubt Hitchens made such an obvious mistake

1397302

Exactly, many people think that Jesus was a good man and not the son of God, but if he was a good person would he have lied about his identity?

1402133
Why not? Gandhi was racist

1399577
Grammar nazi is a noun, not a verb.

You should have said "Don't be a grammar nazi" but whatever.

1402241 and Martin Luther King jnr was black suprimest

also what if Jesus was crazy or liar... Do you even know anything what Jesus said. He said that his word is the truth as he said " I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through me." If he was mad or liar, that would make all his teaching null and void since he claimed that his teaching is Only truth

Read some Bible will yer

1405332

and Martin Luther King jnr was black suprimest

I Suggest you look it up. Specifically regarding his opinions on Africans.

If he was mad or liar, that would make all his teaching null and void since he claimed that his teaching is Only truth

As I pointed out to Brony of Truth: "Lets say Jesus really was mad. That he was not the son of god. If he at some point had said that the sky was blue, would you stop believing the sky is blue?"

1405504

and you will say Malcolm X was equalist

anyway what Jesus taought wasn't something that can be proven factually. Also I must ask you are you a christian and thus believe in the Bible. If so you will see that Jesus's birth is foretold many times in Old Testment. And if you ever read gospel they often use reference to the old testment.

If you don't believe Bible to be the truth then... .

1401876 Oh, don't believe me? I love you for doubting me so.

*2 hours later...* Wow, I hate you so much for making me look up this quote.
He briefly quote/paraphrases C.S. Lewis at 1:16:13...If you want to get the full context, just jump back a couple minutes to the start of the Q&A section at around 1:15:00

So yes, I agree with Hitchens on this (Except for the 'wasn't the Son of God' part), Jesus' teaching would have been lost. Think of it like this: You have a very respectable teacher that you turn to for many things, Almost everything he says is completely true and 100% logical. One day you come to him with a problem involving a friend, you ask him, "Sir, my friend took something of mine and he won't return it, what should I do?" He turns to you and says, "Kill him, and take it back. It was yours in the first place."

Now my question to you is; would you keep going back to that teacher for advice just because he's right most of the time?

I also don't think you get the solemnity of Jesus not being the son of God. The word Christian is meant for people who want to follow The Christ, or to be Christ-like. If Jesus was not God, than the whole religion of Christianity is a farce and a complete lie, all made up by some loon in the desert who said some 'nice things'. This would mean that all the preachings about this man are laughable, all the prayers to this man are hollow and have gone unheard. All the wars that have been fought in his name were genocide without reward, and all of the countless millions who have died and who continue to die to this day in the name of Jesus have all been for nothing.

This would also include the good things; All the charitable donations in his name, the schools built in third world countries, the practice of religious freedom in countries where there is none. Families held together because they had pastor or close church member who showed them a Bible verse that gave them enough strength to move forward. Orphanages, Schools, whole communities... and even countries, in the name of a liar.

I don't know you personally man, but I sincerely wish I did. We would talk everyday, share laughs, talk about our life, our families, God, heck, maybe even about pastel colored ponies. But who has more to lose, you or me?

If I'm right, then in 1000 years I'll be in paradise worshiping God.
If your right, then in 1000 years you and I will be in the ground, with no one left to remember our name.

1404732

Well, at least you understood what I meant. Just don't do it anymore and it will be fine.

1406133
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi#Gandhi_and_the_Africans

And my opinions on the bible are immaterial to this discussion.

1406533
And I was right to do so. What he was saying is this: "Jesus is a shitty moral teacher, therefore the only way any of the bad things he said could be truth is if he is indeed god, in which case whatever he says his true simply by virtue of having been said by him"

It is very different from what you suggested he said: "Jesus was a great moral teacher, but his good teachings become null and void if he indeed was not the sun of god".

It is also worth noting that just because you disagree with a lot of what Jesus said does not follow you disagree with everything he said.

For example: I think Descartes and the reasoning that lead him to his famous "Cogito ergo sum" was pure brilliance. It impacted the way I see the world and I respect him a philosopher for that. However I also think that he completely failed to understand the point of his own discovery and everything that he concluded following further down that line of reasoning is pure unadulterated mental diarrhoea.

Now my question to you is; would you keep going back to that teacher for advice just because he's right most of the time?

Yes. I can decide for myself whether or not to take his advice. If in the past he has offered invaluable insights and his council has lead to many positive results I would be a fool to discard such a precious resource.
That is how it works in real life isn't it? We seek advice from people whose judgements we trust not because we believe them to be infallible but because their advice is usually useful.

I also don't think you get the solemnity of Jesus not being the son of God.[...]If Jesus was not God, than the whole religion of Christianity is a farce and a complete lie

No I understand that. And I agree. I believe it is you who doesn't understand what it means to recognize Jesus as a moral teacher.

In fact 1398782 said it best: "Also plenty of non-christains can say they respect Jesus as a good moral teacher. Then what is difference between us Christians and them?"

A moral teacher is someone who observes reality and reaches conclusions about it's nature. Anyone who finds these insightful and correct would naturally recognize the person making them as a good teacher sometimes even if the other half of what they are saying is nonsense. My example with Descartes above. Also Einstein who didn't believe black holes were real cause they were to strange. Or added new constants to his theory to ensure the universe remained static. Do we deny the genius of these man because of their occasional blunders? Do we deny their value as teachers cause occasionally they taught things that were wrong? No, we don't.

Physical incarnations of the one true god, on the other hand, don't make observations. They make the rules. Everything they say is true cause they say it is, with no exceptions.

That my friends is the difference. Saying the Jesus was not god but a good moral teacher is not a compromise. It's not a situation where you are a christian but not a christain at the same time like some sort of ecclesiastical schrodinger's cat. It is when you say that even though you are not whiling to accept Jesus, or god, you are still able to recognize some intrinsic wisdom in their teachings

Like I recognize the wisdom of the Koran in declaring the charity as on of the fundamental pillars of Islam. Does this make a muslim? Hell no!

1407389

a wiki page as a proff. Yeh know anyone can edit wiki page right and also this" Gandhi focused his attention on Indians while in South Africa and opposed the idea that Indians should be treated at the same level as native Africans while in South Africa.[39][40][41] He also stated that he believed "that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race."[42] After several treatments he received from Whites in South Africa, Gandhi began to change his thinking and apparently increased his interest in politics.[43] White rule enforced strict segregation among all races and generated conflict between these communities. Bhana and Vahed argue that Gandhi, at first, shared racial notions prevalent of the times and that his experiences in jail sensitized him to the plight of blacks." you know it was said that he changed his mind later on so what you said isn't valued even in wiki

anyway

Physical incarnations of the one true god, on the other hand, don't make observations. They make the rules. Everything they say is true cause they say it is, with no exceptions.

this is what I believe Brony of Truth is trying to tell. Since Jesus is God everything he says goses as he MADE the rules. So since he said There is no grey in blief of christains we should all accept Jesus as what he is-God and NOT as "just moral teacher" like so many others. E.g confucius Jesus is not on the same level as people like Confucius. He teaches THE WAY, while people like Confucius taught morals.

1407430

wiki page as a proff. Yeh know anyone can edit wiki page righ

Yes, I also know they have a team of dedicated editors that prevent people from modifying pages with false information. I also know that they source their claims (unfortunately in this case not from an online resource). And as far as I know the only incidents where a wiki page was modified with false information and escaped the eyes of the editors, were minor additions that didn't part much with reality.

Point in case, you probably don't want to reference it if you writing an article to Nature magazine. Internet debates though? I feel pretty comfortable with using it.

But if you disagree feel free to provide examples of incidents where wiki is leading people horribly astray.

you know it was said that he changed his mind later on so what you said isn't valued even in wiki

Yeah, he got better. That is what people who aren't perfect do. That is kinda the whole point isn't it? He was flawed, but was still a great man. Which is why you can accept the preposition Jesus was a good man and that he lied about his identity. Maybe he though it was the only way people would listen.

this is what I believe Brony of Truth is trying to tell.

Maybe it is, but it's not what he said in the OP.