Last night I came up with an interesting way of looking at Sunset's past.

Sunset Shimmer was chosen by Celestia to be her private student. She trained her in magic, building Sunset's power. But she allowed Sunset to grow isolated from her peers — Sunset never established any friendships in the School for Gifted Unicorns. Sunset was destined to become Equestria's newest alicorn princess — perhaps Celestia was unconsciously trying to replace the sister she'd banished. But Celestia gave her a glimpse of that future at a time when Sunset was too young and immature to handle the role. Sunset went power crazy and fled to the human world.

When Celestia found Twilight Sparkle, she saw in her a second chance — Sunset mk II. She took Twilight under her wing and gave her the same education she'd given to Sunset, but this time avoided making the same mistakes. She gave Twilight a baby dragon to raise, teaching Twilight to be more caring, and she encouraged Twilight to make friends. Whatsmore, she didn't tell Twilight about her destiny to become an alicorn princess — she just let it happen when the time was right.

So what do you think about that interpretation? That Sunset was destined to become a princess, but Celestia's mistakes in her training led to her downfall, and that Twilight was Celestia's attempt to get it right the second time around?

I think it opens the door to a few interesting ideas in fics — there's already several stories where Sunset returns to Equestria and Celestia forgives her. But with the theory above, you'd also have Celestia seeking forgiveness from Sunset.

I'm planning to write a SunLight story later in the year and really think this interpretation of their relationship will add an interesting dynamic to it.

I think this was used for Twilight falls, Sunset dawns.

I've always liked this idea regarding Celestia's past with Sunset.
Touched on this as well in a story I put up here back in January. You've pretty much nailed my interpretation from Celestia's POV in the post here. =)

Well I remember something similar to this from a story, but still something very interesting to go off of.

I'm honestly not a fan whenever people look to place the blame on someone other than Sunset. It lessens the impact of her taking responsibility for her actions, and her efforts to redeem herself no longer seem as relevant. It's just not something that works as a strong factor in a story.

4264468
I think that has been the stock interpretation of Celestia's POV since the IDW comics and EQG movie #1. So... welcome to the club, VitalSpark?

I like to think that Sunset and Twilight are not just 2 students in a long line of Personal Students that Celestia has tutored in over a millennium. In fact, they are pretty much her only ones. Or at the very least, her only ones in a long long long time. It's the only explanation why there's such a disparity between how she handled the 2 of them: How she messed up so terribly with Sunset, and how she corrected herself so much in her tactics with her very next mentorship attempt. If these 2 students were the latest 2 in a long line, then Celestia would have been pretty set in her ways by now and would not have changed methods so quickly and drastically.

Out-universe, it helps make the 2 students special, if they're Celestia's only ones.

So why would Celestia not take students for 1000+ years, but suddenly decide to take 2, one after the other? Simple, she's grooming a Bearer of Magic. It's pretty much canon that she knows exactly when NMM was coming back; it's pretty obvious that Sunset was her first attempt for a BoM chronologically speaking. If Project Sunset went as planned, Sunset would have comfortably graduated and would have had plenty of time to level up as a BoM (all the way to alicorn) by the time NMM came back. A fresh-out-of-prison NMM should have been an easy boss to beat for a Sunset who had already grinded for years in preparation.

Instead, the timing of Twilight was really skin-of-teeth; Twilight barely managed to be ready when NMM came back, and had to "finish her training" on the fly. That's waaaaaay too close to be comfortable; very "OOC" for a chessmaster who wants all the pieces in place ahead of time. You can tell Twilight was Celestia's emergency 2nd attempt when Project Sunset unexpectedly failed.

If you understand the above, you can then begin to understand why Celestia acts the way she does regarding Sunset:

-- Like why a usually laid-back ruler like her seemed so over-eager to show Sunset her destiny, wtf was she thinking?
-- Like why she was so unreservedly proud and sure of her protege to the point of hubris, yet so uncharacteristically harsh with her as soon as Sunset turned out to be less than perfect (Think about this, a Princess who would give Discord a 2nd chance, tells her personal student to "Get out and never come back." Really?).
-- Like why she seems so concerned about Sunset in EQG #1, yet doesn't try to get Sunset to come home.

The Celestia who taught Sunset is not the Celestia who guided Twilight. If Twilight talked to Sunset about Celestia, they'd find that they're talking about 2 subtly different princesses. Knowing the reasons why explains this shift.

Another way to think about Celestia, and in continuation from my above post, is to think of her as a mother, Sunset as her firstborn, and Twilight as her youngest. As a parent, your attitude towards these children would be very different.

(1) Your firstborn would be your child when you didn't know wtf you were doing as a parent. Everything's a first for both of you, and as a result you make many mistakes with the kid which years later makes you wonder how the heck your kid turned out straight (or not, in this case) with such a terrible parent. However, she's your firstborn, and no matter how different you treat your subsequent children, she is the one you are proudest of, the one you treat as an adult the most, the one you see as stronger than all her siblings. With huge pride also comes huge expectations: You place the most responsibility on her, and you're harshest on her when someone makes a mistake. If there's any child who you're going to have disagreements with, and who ends up having a cyclic hot-and-cold relationship with you, it's your firstborn.

(2) Your youngest... well, you're prepared as a parent. Not just in knowing what to do so you come off as a smooth operator, but also in the fact that you have your finances and career all set so you can devote your attention to her. She's gonna be the baby, your little angel, the one you dote on (but you know what you're doing) and the one who dotes on you. She's the child you can have heart-to-heart with. She'll be the one who turns out the way you want, not because she's just that strong but because now you're a Jedi master in childrearing (hopefully).

4264575
I would say that Sunset's still 100% accountable for her own actions, even though Celestia missed some warning signs and/or didn't do enough to keep Sunset from going down a dark path. So long as Sunset has free will, she can't really blame anyone else for what she chose to do.

However, I think it's also fair to say that Celestia probably made a mistake or two with Sunset during her education. She's not perfect, after all. At the very least, she missed warning signs/didn't take action quickly enough to stop Sunset from turning into a villain.

4264468 I guess I can agree, a little bit. Sunset is clearly a confident mare, one who takes a great deal of pride in her achievements. It's easy to see how from that point how her continuous success and status as Celestia's student led her to become arrogant, from there without any significant failures to temper her she continued on to become egocentric and power hungry. Sunset has some serious character flaws she has always needed to deal with but at the same time I feel she genuinely needed others to show her this. In that sense there is some degree of failing on Celestia's part as her mentor and teacher (maybe even guardian if your going with the Sunset is an orphan head canon).

Her position likely didn't help her either. The position of Celestia's personal student is likely coveted quite badly causing Sunset grief from the animosity of other students. This is something I think Twilight and Sunset had in common, leading to their less then social attitudes. The big difference comes in how they likely dealt with this issue. Where Twilight would have simply locked herself away from her fellow students to give herself peace Sunset would have fought fire with fire, getting rid of her issues rather then blocking them off, the unfortunate side effect being branded an unfriendly character by other unhostile students.

However with all that said Sunset still made bad choices and the consequence are hers to deal with. But just like it wasn't entirely her fault, it's not really fair if she has to deal with them entirely alone.

4264494

I think this was used for Twilight falls, Sunset dawns.

Yes it was.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/194394/twilight-falls-sunset-dawns

We really need some Sunset emoticons on this site.

4264468 On the one hand, I think you're onto something (you're far from the only one who holds this interpretation of Sunset). But on the other hand…

I'm not sure Celestia actually learned much of anything from how she screwed up Sunset. She seems to have raised and taught Twilight in the exact same way. Twilight is incredibly messed up; she's just better at hiding it, and the narrative likes to deny it. In fact, the only real difference I can see that Celestia had any direct hand hoof in is that Twilight has Spike to act as her (oft-ignored) conscience. In my headcanon, I like to believe that Sunset hatched Philomena – hey, there's nothing in the canon yet that says she couldn't have. Problem is, birds can't talk and Philomena herself is kind of an ass who wouldn't have helped Sunset at all.

A few holes in your theory: First, Celestia did encourage Sunset to make friends… and she reacted in pretty much the same way Twilight did, only harsher. Second, Celestia didn't tell Sunset about the Alicornication or princesshood; Sunset learned about that herself by breaking into the Royal Library's restricted wing and reading the Necronomicon. Celestia attempted to try a "Mirror of Erised" thing on Sunset but showed her the wrong mirror. Third, I don't think Celestia "waited until the time was right" with Twilight; I think she jumped the gun quite a lot. But as ready for executive authority as Twilight wasn't (and still isn't), Sunset was far less ready and Celestia, to her credit, knew it.

Probably Celestia's biggest failure with teaching Sunset was in never explaining Why. Sunset seems to me to be the type who needs to have everything laid out on the table, in detail, taking nothing on faith. She clearly hates when information is withheld from her as she probably feels it keeps her from making proper decisions – in other words, "Don't you tell me I'm not ready; give me reasons and then I'll decide if I'm not ready!". For the record, I really identify with Sunset on this point. This is in stark contrast to Twilight, who is so utterly devoted to Celestia that she would never truly question her (in the pilot, Twilight sort of did that, but only because she felt she hadn't presented enough proof of NMM, and she still did what Celestia told her to). I think if Celestia had just explained everything to Sunset upfront, Sunset would not have flipped out, because she would have had no reason to believe Celestia was lying to her.

Going further into headcanon territory, I believe there was also a significant difference between Sunset and Twilight in their outside support networks. Twilight comes from a loving (and by all indications, wealthy) family. By contrast, I write Sunset as coming from a poor background, disliked by her family, and picked on by other foals – the latter did not stop after Celestia took her in, due to the former.

Don't think I'm letting Sunset off the hook here. Sunny acted like a complete twatwaffle while under Celestia's care, and that's all on her. Judging by her reactions post rainbow-to-the-face, she clearly knows it now.

4264468 This is the interpretation I'm running with in my 'fiction, yes, with a few added wrinkles.

Sunset and Twilight had slightly different upbringings and attracted her attention for different reasons, but Celestia no doubt hoped that the two could become her equals one day. I'm also going with the idea that she had tons of personal students, it's just that none of them ever showed the same potential as Sunset or Twilight. I definitely don't think that Celestia saw Twilight as another Sunset, however - both were unique individuals, and this was just a chance for the princess to do things right.

That's part of why I had both Sunset and Celestia apologize to one another - both of them screwed up. Both of them know they screwed up. And both of them are unafraid to try again, wiser this time.

Thanks everybody for your responses.

4264577

The Celestia who taught Sunset is not the Celestia who guided Twilight.

She's a changeling imposter!!!

Kidding — I know what you mean.

4264814

In my headcanon, I like to believe that Sunset hatched Philomena

I like that. I'm stealing that.

Second, Celestia didn't tell Sunset about the Alicornication or princesshood; Sunset learned about that herself by breaking into the Royal Library's restricted wing and reading the Necronomicon.

There's a frame earlier on than that (on the third page I think) where Celestia tells Sunset to look into a mirror, and the mirror reveals an image of Sunset as an alicorn wearing a crown.

4264468 This is how I kind of always viewed things happening, it doesn't absolve Sunset of her own mistakes but doesn't lay all the blame on her alone. Personally I've always included Cadence in Sunset's fall as she would've shown up at that time. Celestia brings her into the family and Sunset suddenly feels like everything she wanted is being taken from her. Her own self imposed isolation from other students didn't help her deal with this and she started making bad choices.
4264575 I'm personally not a fan of Celestia is blameless stories myself. Not saying that Sunset or Luna for that matter were blameless, but to say they carried all the blame is just wrong. Sunset made mistakes, Luna made mistakes, Celestia made mistakes. Nobody is completely blameless. Celestia's biggest fault is that she keeps making the same mistakes over and over.

4264468
I am one who thinks there is a lot of blame to go around, and to completely shift blame away from Sunset is detrimental to her character. Life is all about choices, Sunset made her when she started to lust for power and rand though the Mirror.

4264841

There's a frame earlier on than that (on the third page I think) where Celestia tells Sunset to look into a mirror, and the mirror reveals an image of Sunset as an alicorn wearing a crown.

True, but Celestia had no idea what Sunset would see in that mirror (and she very heavily implied a couple panels later she didn't intend to show Sunset the EQG mirror, but a different one), and Celestia never brought up Princesshood; Sunset did see herself as an Alicorn and spoke of becoming more powerful, but didn't use the "P" word at the time. It was only later, after weeks of Celestia refusing to explain that mirror, that Sunset did some research on her own, in the process discovering the Alicornication spell. It was at that point that Sunset demanded Celestia make her a Princess. And we all know how well that went.

Incidentally, I like to believe that Celestia has, over the course of the last millennium, left behind a trail of former personal students, all of whom are (or were, if no longer alive) absolutely batsh!t. Cadence is a weird exception for various reasons.

4264877 Sure. Blame is not a zero sum game.

4264468

While IDW comics may support this, and it is probably meant to be the case in the show, there are other interpretation.

To begin with: both Sunset and Twilight have issues. However, in case of Twilight they are deeper. Sunset, despite here attitude, didn't resorted to true violence in Eq.G., while Twilight once suffered mental breakdown and resorted to brainwashing. This means, that both Sunset and Twilight were raised wrong way, and Twilight is more screwed. Could it be a mistake? Hardly. Celestia is old, she likely has a lot of experience in the matter. Meaning, that it was done on purpose. However, Sunset gone rogue, guessing that Celestia has her own plans for her, and her successor is more screwed... meaning that Celestia was easy on Sunset, but being more pressed with Twilight, Celestia was more... thorough and guided Twilight more firmly. Twilight, however, is somewhat fixed by semblance of normal life in Ponyville, while Sunset got really screwed by fate and became what she became. This does not mean, however, that Twilight is in better position: she and her friends are tied to elements of harmony, meaning they are much less persons and more tools of harmony, while Sunset is more or less on her own for now.

4265105 That is why I love Sunset as a character, she's her own person and not tied to destiny like Twilight is.

4264620
Sure, but the impression I got from this thread was that OP wanted to see a story that focused on blaming Celestia for everything. That's just not a good basis for a story. It undermines everything Sunset's done since RR.

4264861
That's... not what was this thread is about nor is it relevant to what I said. I'm not sure why you felt the need to say it, honestly.

4264814

I'm not sure Celestia actually learned much of anything from how she screwed up Sunset. She seems to have raised and taught Twilight in the exact same way.

I would think it was pretty clear that she raised the two foals in pretty much opposite ways. Note, I don't take IDW comics as word-for-word canon; I hate it and I never do. But I do think IDW received an outline from Hasbro/ Studio DHX this time around, with an order to draw Sunset's origins.

Anyways, Celestia is very subtle in her gentle guidance of Twilight, as we've seen in the show. She prefers to test Twilight when Twilight is unaware of the test, and she gave Twilight no hint that she's bound for something greater until the end of season 3 when it actually happened. With Sunset, she's front and center. She blatantly grooms Sunset for rulership, she tells Sunset to her face that she'll become a princess. She shows Sunset a magic mirror with an explicit purpose. I know it's unfair of me to pick and choose from the IDW comics issue, but hey what can I say, IDW comics cannot be considered canon in any sense of the word.

I do agree that Celestia teased Sunset with destiny, without telling her why. Sunset reacted badly and Celestia learned from that mistake: Celestia never "teased" Twilight. She kept Twilight completely in the dark.

True, but Celestia had no idea what Sunset would see in that mirror

Well, what do you think Celestia intended by showing Sunset the mirror? It's obvious that Celestia wanted Sunset to see a good future in it, and we know what Celestia has in mind for Sunset as a "best future."

Celestia simply thought that a peek into a good future would be a positive motivator. She misjudged Sunset's maturity. She immediately realized her mistake but it's too late.

4265132 The other big thing, is that Celestia maybe realized with Twilight that she couldn't teach her the most important magic on her own, so made extensive arrangements for her to meet and learn from her friends what Celestia was unable to teach.

4265121 Maybe I just misunderstood what you were trying to say, and for that I apologize.

4265132
You give Sunbutt too much credit.

4264575
>It lessens the impact of her taking responsibility for her actions, and her efforts to redeem herself no longer seem as relevant.
I honestly can't see any good in redemption lines. Redemption in a story is a waste of characters. This is why Eq.G. sucks.

4265856

This is why Eq.G. sucks.

And also why we have more than 2 episodes of FiM to watch in the first place.

4265856

You give Sunbutt too much credit.

Actually, I give the writers too much credit. Celestia the character herself, she must have thought the way I described.
Consider:
(1) Celestia specifically groomed Twilight to take on NMM. That was her first mission. S01E01-02 was not an accident. This is canon.
(2) When Sunset was taken in as a student, Celestia had already known Twilight was a candidate for Personal Student. She sent Cadance to babysit blank-flank Twi. She gave Twi an extra-hard test that no other foal had to pass to get into her school.

All of the above could have been coincidence on the part of the writers, since Cadance and Sunset weren't conceived when S01E01-02 were written. But in-setting, when taken together it shows it was not coincidence to Celestia.

4265917
I was talking about 'subtle' part. She's no more subtle than Mr. Torque even if she's a chess-master. And I'm less then convinced that she had interests of either Twilight or Sunset in mind when groomed them.

4265885
Actually, if Luna was NOT sorry, it would be a whole lot better for the plot. The only reason it was not the case is that Hasbro wanted it sugar-bowled.

4265935

it would be a whole lot better for the plot.

It wouldn't be FiM then. It would be Sailor Moon.

4265935
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, people should not apologize when they screw up?

4265946
No, you don't. Though, in general, doing something is much better then squeezing some words.

4265968

No, you don't

understand
or

No, you don't

apologize?

4265935
(1) She's not "subtle" to you, but she certainly was "subtle" as far as Twilight was concerned. Twi never knew what hit her, every single time.
(2) Celestia necessarily must balance the interests of Equestria with the interests of any single pony.
(3) You're incorrect on 2 counts. One, it would not be better for the plot. Two, it wasn't Hasbro's idea it was Faust's. As of S01E01-02, Faust had "total creative control" as was written on her contract with Hasbro.

4266002
1) Maybe. This doesn't say much, Twilight is not the most socially wise pony.
2) Correction: Celestia pursues interests of her country first and individual ponies last. Or she is a shitty ruler.
3) a) it would, since instead of happy family reunion we would gain a lot of plot hooks and b) Faust didn't work in vacuum, she had restrictions even if had 'creative control'. She could not write a psychological drama, since it would be too complex for intended audience.

4266001
Reread till understand.

4266216
(1) I think it says enough about the show that this amount of subtlety is written in for children. The show never outright explains this to that audience until end of season 3, expecting children to realize it themselves through implication. Something some of the adult audience didn't realize until told. That's unprecedented.

(2) Then she is a shitty ruler in your book, fine. Nobody who likes Celestia is going to agree with you that she's a cold-hearted bitch just so they can convince you she's a good ruler.

(3) Faust wasn't aiming to write an anime. We didn't watch MLP because we wanted to watch an anime. I have so many dark animes on my To Watch list I can't keep count anymore. I don't need another one with 20% the animation budget, just because it speaks English.

4266593
1) it was obvious after the pilot and reinforced in 'Ticket Master'
2) Oh no. She is a good pony, and just as any good pony in her position, she is a ruler first.
3) Funny thing, she used a lot of anime cliches.

4268011
(1) Obvious to you, me, and a lot of other adults. Yes. Ever spelled out at the end of the eps? No.
(2) She balances the 2 extremes. Not everyone needs to give up her hum- well, humanity just to rule well.
(3) Tangential to my point, but you raise a curious one. Tell me what you think these anime cliches are.

Sunset always reminded me of Tai Lung from the kung fu panda movie. Obviously Celestia had a lot of faith in Sunset raised her up from nothing, nurtured her talent and encouraged her to be the best. Tai Lung believed her was the dragon warrior and Shifu didn't necessarily try to stop him from thinking that, he grew up believing he would be the chosen one. Sunset isn't so different from that, Celestial trained her personally and as far as we know that is very rare occurrence, it would surprise me if Sunset believed she would be the next alicorn but when it all came down to it, she just didn't have it in her to truly accend. Feeling mad, betrayed and almost worthless, her lifetime of training had meant nothing. So she fled to the human world in dispair. And probably tried to access the elements power after all she did win the crown every year. She obviously was trying to gain access to its power, she didn't just steal it to keep a low profile. Her goal was to access the elements gain their power and then kick Celestia's ass

This rambling mess was just my opinion on Sunsets relationship with Celestia, it reminds me of Shifu and Tai Lung and the more I thought about it I saw more and more similarities.

4269053
That is actually a very apt comparison. Ha ha, Sunset is a wusha expy.

Her goal was to access the elements gain their power and then kick Celestia's ass

Finally someone who understands. Demon Sunset's plan was not stupid as most assume. Ofc a teenage zombie army is useless for conquering Equestria. But it's only a tool for kicking Celestia's ass.

4268191
(1) https://youtu.be/wbzRRp2jRHw?t=59s
(2) Rules against fraternization exist for a reason.
(3) BESM, Tsurime/Tareme Eyes, Hikikomori coming out of shell - and this only in first episode and what I can name out of blue.

4271054
(1) Yes, spelled out for the NMM Mission. After Twi has completed it. And Twi thought that was the end of it. But not the Alicorn Project. Until end of season 3.

I think you're starting to drift from the point in a belaboured attempt to prove me wrong on something which is so basic it's impossible to prove me wrong. My original point was that Celestia is much more subtle in her guidance of Twilight, compared to Sunset. In terms of a children's cartoon. I don't care whether or not you the analytical adult viewer thought it was subtle; ofc it wasn't that subtle to us. Seriously, this is not even an interesting discussion point.

(2) Such rules do not exist in a monarchy. What's your point anyways? Is there something you want to say, besides contradicting me?

(3) Never seen them. I thought you were going to list cultural tropes specific to animation out of Japan. If you're just going to list storytelling tropes which everybody in the world uses (Japan included), then I don't see why I need to think "Faust is copying anime."

4271085
(1) The fact that Celesia groomed Twilight for something still was pretty obvious.
(2) The reason still does exist.
(3) *facepalms*. Influence of anime-style on FiM is quite widely recognized.

My point is, that people tend to give Sunbut too much credit. She is a motherly figure in the series, and if we don't analyze the series, she is portrayed in sympathetic light. However, once one starts to cross-reference facts, some quite uncomfortable facts become obvious.
1) BOTH her students are seriously messed up.
2) She is kinda troll. That's OK, but ruining an official event for trolling is morally questionable.
3) She does not hide her influence, but rarely tells what she wants.

Consequently, whenever I see sugar-motherly portrayal of Sunbut, I can only smirk and go to another work.

4271111
(1)(2) Okay, you have nothing interesting to say about this. Tell you what, "You win." Hooray.
(3) I've been watching anime and reading manga since I was little. And I disagree with you. There, I have just provided as much information and conviction as you have.

(4.1) Twilight has cartoony quirks; she is not "messed up." Keep in mind: This is a cartoon. There will be slapstick. Hilarity often ensues.
(4.2) Please. Canterlot will survive this terrible ordeal.
(4.3) And?

Anyways, you seem unable to reconcile contrasting qualities which a person is able to embody simultaneously. Not all characters are comfortably 2-dimensional.

4271157
>contrasting qualities which a person is able to embody simultaneously.
*facepalms*
*looks at his collection of favorite psychos*
*facepalms a lot*
*Withdraws*