Ever since I read Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell, I've been wondering about this. In it, Cadance tells Twilight how she became an alicorn. She reversed a love-stealing spell cast by a mare named Prismia by countering it with her own love. As such, Princess Celestia took her to the astral plane just like Twilight, and Cadance became the Princess of Love.

Judging by the Journal of the Two Sisters, I think it's safe to say that Celestia and Luna were born alicorns instead of ascending. While Twilight ascended by finishing Star Swirl's incomplete spell; and in the process, she proved that she understood friendship even more than he did.

As for Sunset, well, I think it would be rather fitting that since she fell into evil trying to become one and spent the better part of the first movie using the Fall Formal as recompense for her imagined slights, that her journey should end with her becoming a Princess for real.

But how should that happen? Well, her method should need to show the Character Development she's gained. Maybe rescuing Human Twilight from her own fall just like Pony Twilight did for her, thus symbolically bringing her full-circle from where she started.

Or maybe she could prove that she now understands just what it means to be a Princess, embracing leadership and guidance rather than power and control.

So once again my friends, the floor is yours. If Sunset became an alicorn, what would be the best way to do so?

4557787 I'm fine with her being a human, no need to go back through the portal and become a pony, just so she can become an alicorn. We've seen what could happen to her if she 'ascends', in the "My past is not today" video.

4557818 Well, nothing says she has to go back through to portal to ascend. After all, Twilight had wings even in human form.

4557824 Still, I would prefer if whatever that was in that video wasn't foreshadowing for her becoming an alicorn. Instead, it's Sunset unique form of ascension, part demon, part alicorn.

4557833

Still, I would prefer if whatever that was in that video wasn't foreshadowing for her becoming an alicorn. Instead, it's Sunset unique form of ascension, part demon, part alicorn.

There's nothing demonic about it.

But anyways, even as a huge sunset fanboy i don't want to see sunset become an Alicorn. Having a different ascension is much more appropriate to the show, it's themes and the character.

4557880 *cough wings and tail made of fire *cough

4557787 I'm of the opinion that there's more to ascension than all of that - an already-powerful magical artifact was involved in both Cadance and Twilight's cases.

I like the circumstances you've suggested for when and how she ascends, however, and I definitely feel that she should.

4557885 Phoenix imagery is somehow demonic?

4557977 Phoenix imagery is somehow only symbolic of alicorns?

4557981 I'm not saying that fiery wings and tail can't be demonic, but it's still a very distinctly different look from how she appeared when turned into a raging she-demon. The latter looked frightening and terrifying, whereas the former looked uplifting and positive.

4557998 That's why I said part demonic.

4558010
If you want to interpret her as demonic, that's your call. But it seems to be entirely missing the point.

Sunset Shimmer has a fire theme. The wings were flames, symbolizing her rebirth. Like a phoenix. Trying to say she was demonic or partly demonic seems to miss the message completely.

On topic, I'm fine with Her never ascending. It was an interesting character arc for Twilight, but I don't think it is the kind of thing every character needs. If anything, she already had her "ascension" when she rose up from her past, cast it aside, and is moving on as a new, better person. Not everything needs a literal transformation.

4558066 I intrepret it that way because I want that form to return, in some way. Having some demonic essence (I don't know what else to call it) still inside her that she can call upon isn't evil, it's how she uses it. I'd love to see her use it for good, it would be a great way to bring her full circle, from villian to hero. It would show that even methods that seem evil can be used for good.

4558086

I intrepret it that way because I want that form to return, in some way. Having some demonic essence (I don't know what else to call it) still inside her that she can call upon isn't evil, it's how she uses it. I'd love to see her use it for good, it would be a great way to bring her full circle, from villian to hero. It would show that even methods that seem evil can be used for good.

Dark magic is so antithetical to her nature she starts crying when the crown backlashes on her and she transforms.
It's Twilight who can use dark magic naturally without a problem. (Just as pinkie pie uses chaos magic.)

4558066

On topic, I'm fine with Her never ascending. It was an interesting character arc for Twilight, but I don't think it is the kind of thing every character needs. If anything, she already had her "ascension" when she rose up from her past, cast it aside, and is moving on as a new, better person. Not everything needs a literal transformation.

God is explicitly pantheistic and the cosmology most resembles daoism.
Sunset is vastly more mystical in her approaches and tied to that cosmology than Twilight is, that she doesn't obtain some form of enlightenment wouldn't make sense.

4558161

God is explicitly pantheistic and the cosmology most resembles daoism.
Sunset is vastly more mystical in her approaches and tied to that cosmology than Twilight is, that she doesn't obtain some form of enlightenment wouldn't make sense.

Er... Nowhere in her comment did Cryosite make mention of religion of any form. So, this really isn't relevant at all.

Also, no, Sunset's approaches are no more mystical than Twilight's in the show. If you're going to call "brainwash the army of teenagers and turn them into demons" some sort of cosmology, I must point out that Twilight has used time magic, brainwashing spells, full knowledge of potions and alchemy, and quite a few other rather powerful feats, all prior to becoming a princess. In fact, I'd say that Twilight has shown herself to be far more mystical in her approach, and willing to share that knowledge. If we were going the religious route, she'd be more akin the the deities you're referring to, while Sunset would still be serving some form of penance for bastardizing pony magic for her own selfish gains.

Sunset has the demonic transformation, and then her subsequent redemption. Part of RR was the story of her earning back that pony magic and moving toward a better future, not that she's suddenly a princess as though one good act washes away her past. If it happens, it'll probably be way down the line for her. For now, she's still on step 1 or 2. In short, she's at about the same place on that path as Twilight in S1.

4558274

Also, no, Sunset's approaches are no more mystical than Twilight's in the show. If you're going to call "brainwash the army of teenagers and turn them into demons" some sort of cosmology,

That the rainbow exists separately from the elements.
Is the source of all magic.
And exists as a cosmic constant on all worlds.
That's cosmology, and Sunset explicitly knows a lot more about the elements if not the rest of that than Twilight. Which makes sense when she's the protagonist of the EQG movies and they deal with the cosmology more.

I must point out that Twilight has used time magic, brainwashing spells, full knowledge of potions and alchemy, and quite a few other rather powerful feats, all prior to becoming a princess. In fact, I'd say that Twilight has shown herself to be far more mystical in her approach, and willing to share that knowledge.

How often does twilight's approach to magic fuck shit up and blow up in her face? Twilight doesn't treat magic as mystical, she treats it as an engineering problem, something to be solved.
I mean the next EQG movie is going to treat that part of Twilight's character as a major plot point/threat.

If we were going the religious route, she'd be more akin the the deities you're referring to, while Sunset would still be serving some form of penance for bastardizing pony magic for her own selfish gains.

Wrong kind of religion entirely.

4558342

The first counter point you made is based entirely in your headcanon. Nowhere in the show does it say that the rainbow is the source of all magic.

The second is laughable. Twilight is eager to discover the secrets of magic, both general and that of friendship. If that's not more mystical than "let me take over the world... Oh wait, that was a mistake! Let's be friends!" I don't know what is.

Also, using human Twilight in a discussion about pony Twilight. No. Human Twi =/= Pony Twi. They are different characters.

For your third and final point, bullshit. Just plain bullshit. Daoism would've had Sunset firmly rooted in the evil side based on her character (and I use that term very loosely) in the first movie. You do not get to discount that. Go through any religion, I invite you, and you'll find that she'd either be on the bad side or on that point of "that traitor who broke things because of her ego, and now feels bad".

4558353

The first counter point you made is based entirely in your headcanon. Nowhere in the show does it say that the rainbow is the source of all magic.

Really?
At the end of season 4 the restoration of magic is called let the rainbow remind you, the rainbow is restoring all of equestria into balance and restoring their magic, even restoring discords magic.
Summoning the rainbow in the first movie causes magic to become a permanent fixture of earthquestria and it by all accounts is growing.

The second is laughable. Twilight is eager to discover the secrets of magic, both general and that of friendship.

And how often does her trying to discover it's secrets blow up in her face?

Mystical
1.of or relating to mystics or religious mysticism.
2.inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination.

Also, using human Twilight in a discussion about pony Twilight. No. Human Twi =/= Pony Twi. They are different characters.

Not really, there's shown to be heavy, heavy, overlap between alternates. (I mean, why else use alternates if there wasn't?)
Most importantly though is the alternates get access to the same personal magic, which means they would have identical "souls"(I mean in the sense of fundamental/true nature, not in the modern sense.).

For your third and final point, bullshit. Just plain bullshit. Daoism would've had Sunset firmly rooted in the evil side based on her character (and I use that term very loosely) in the first movie. You do not get to discount that.

And then she was restored somewhat, and at the end of the 2nd movie she was restored fully to who she was supposed to be in the dao, yes.

4558449

All of your "evidence" relies on your own headcanon with only minor nods from the primary source. Therefore any point you may think you have is completely invalid. Feel free to write your ideas into a story and use it in your own little world, but quit trying to force your personal thoughts onto the show itself and claim that they are the one singular truth. Shit doesn't work that way.

4558449

It came from the Tree of Harmony, a force of balance and restoring the land. You're trying to infer that it just granted the ponies their magic back. It basically stripped the magic from Tirek and returned it to the ponies he'd stolen it from.

Whether or not Twilight's experiments blow up in her face has utterly no bearing as to her mysticism. None. You're acting as though mistakes discredit her. If that were the case, I can't begin to imagine how you think Sunset can be more connected to mysticism or cosmology when she literally did the same damn studies as Twilight in EqG verse, then left her teacher's side, and then tried to raise an army to conquer a planet (as stupid as that plan was). One of the main problems in your argument is that you nitpick in order to satisfy what you want to be true. If you're going to say "Twilight fails in X department because of incident Y" then the same reasoning must apply to Sunset, given that both are being compared. And given that Sunset has one act of redemption for several offenses, while Twilight continually redeems herself for her mistakes, big and small, I'd say Twi has a lot more going for her.

Additionally, the rainbow in the first movie is brought about by their connections to the elements, one of the parallels that you've mentioned, which brings me to your next point.

No. The "overlap" does not mean their souls are identical. The ponies and humans were raised differently, they have different experiences, and different ways of coming together. Their souls are not carbon copies of one another. Just plain no.

Also, no. Your point above:

Dark magic is so antithetical to her nature she starts crying when the crown backlashes on her and she transforms.
It's Twilight who can use dark magic naturally without a problem. (Just as pinkie pie uses chaos magic.)

This is utter bullshit. Twilight struggled to use dark magic in S4 E1+2, to the point that she physically strained to do so. Pinkie has never been canonically confirmed to use chaos magic—your head canon explanation for how she does things does not apply. At all. And I suspect Sunset's tears might've had something to do with the Elements' magic forcibly ripping that demonic power out of her. Or, y'know, the crown being an Element and saying "Dark magic using being? No. You don't get this power." This applies to your point of "restoring her place on the Dao": she disrupted the Dao herself with her actions (I'm not repeating them. Just check the list above). She was not inherently on the good side of the Dao. She's selfish and power hungry, she doesn't change until she has her power ripped from her and Twilight straight up tells her that she was beaten because she had no friends. Her character throughout that damn movie was literally "LOOK AT ME! I AM EVIL!" In the second movie, she becomes a character trying to redeem herself and find her place on the good side of the Dao (why in the shit are we even using this? There's more connection to Greco-Roman mythology in the damn show anyway).

In closing, to pretty much every point you've raised, I have the following for you:

Applies to just about everything you've said since jumping on this thread. Later.

4558342

That the rainbow exists separately from the elements. Is the source of all magic. And exists as a cosmic constant on all worlds.

Canonically false. It is explicitly said that the magic the girls have is Equestrian magic, leftover or otherwise. So far Earth has not shown that it has any "native" magic.

Summoning the rainbow in the first movie causes magic to become a permanent fixture of earthquestria and it by all accounts is growing.

How do you jump from that to "it is all magic"? Equestrian magic is leaking into the town, but it is still Equestrian magic.

4558479

Whether or not Twilight's experiments blow up in her face has utterly no bearing as to her mysticism. None. You're acting as though mistakes discredit her. If that were the case, I can't begin to imagine how you think Sunset can be more connected to mysticism or cosmology when she literally did the same damn studies as Twilight in EqG verse, then left her teacher's side,

A) Sunset shimmer has been shown to know a lot more about the elements than Twilight, I've said since the EqG movies deal more with the cosmology this might extend to other things, this i do not know.
B) They've never done the same experiments, and i'm not saying the mistakes discredit her, i'm saying the mistakes are part of dichotomy between the two.

Where Power is core to who Sunset is, and her desire for it is the main obstacle to her wisdom/enlightenment.
Knowledge fills that role for Twilight, But did so well before Sunset was introduced.

No. The "overlap" does not mean their souls are identical. The ponies and humans were raised differently, they have different experiences, and different ways of coming together. Their souls are not carbon copies of one another. Just plain no.

Souls/Magic in pony have nothing to do with experiences or the mind.
Ripping out or changing someone's magic doesn't change their experiences but changes far more fundamental things. (Rarities fashion sense, applejack's country accent, all things lost when their magic is removed.)

Additionally, the rainbow in the first movie is brought about by their connections to the elements, one of the parallels that you've mentioned, which brings me to your next point.

And the 2nd movie?
Something explicitly pointed out was they didn't have an element then, and thus weren't able to link to them. Yet the rainbow still came.

In the second movie, she becomes a character trying to redeem herself and find her place on the good side of the Dao

And at the end she does.

(why in the shit are we even using this? There's more connection to Greco-Roman mythology in the damn show anyway).

Because the Greco-roman mythology refrences are much more trappings than they are thematics where daoism is the closest religion in thematic overlap. (Everything has a place in the dao, finding this place leads to happiness&contentment, not finding or abandoning this place leads to suffering.)
The show certainly doesn't preach Arete.

4558817

Canonically false. It is explicitly said that the magic the girls have is Equestrian magic, leftover or otherwise. So far Earth has not shown that it has any "native" magic.

"Pop Quizz. Do you know what happens when you bring an element of harmony to another world?" - Sunset Shimmer

How do you jump from that to "it is all magic"? Equestrian magic is leaking into the town, but it is still Equestrian magic.

The first movie is the first time it's hinted that the rainbow might be a larger thing, with twilight going "Here or on ANY world it is the only thing that can truly unite us.", yes she's talking about the magic of friendship but that's her understanding.
Then we see in the second movie calling down the rainbow left a permanent marker in the form of magic, Sunset getting redemption beamed is pretty much a side effect compared to you know rewriting physics.

4559054

"Pop Quizz. Do you know what happens when you bring an element of harmony to another world?" - Sunset Shimmer

More evidence that you're grafting your own headcanon on flimsy evidence and passing it off as canon.
Sunset could have meant anything by that statement. You think it meant Earth has its own magic. It could just as easily have meant that taking the EoM out of Equestria bypasses its failsafes.

Then we see in the second movie calling down the rainbow left a permanent marker in the form of magic,

No, we see Equestrian magic at work. The movie plainly states it as Equestrian magic. Just because it looks impressive doesn't make it anything else.

I was just recently watching Magical Mystery Cure and someone brought a theory up. (I forgot who but they brought up that to be able to become an alicorn you have to used dark magic but you can't use dark magic unless you are intune with the rules of the world.

Compassion, Charity, devotion, integrity, optimism and leadership.

optimism season 1 episode 20 twilight kept her hopes up that Fluttershy and rarity would work it out.
Charity season 1 episode 12 compassion is episode season 2 episode 16 Devotion a canterlot wedding Integrity episode of winter wrap up. Leadership The season 2 premiere.

so has sunset shown those qualities? yes. Sunset showed devotion with my past is not today. compassion towards Sci-twi in friendship games. optimism after the defeat of the sirens in rainbow rocks. charity in rainbow rocks. integrity in Anon-a-miss. even at her lowest she kept fight. and leadership is legend of everfree!
all Sunset has to do is be in a problem that requires her to use dark magic. and when that happens she will have the right to be an alicorn.

Get this Sci-twi movie the brambles to regroup with the other students she used magic fuel by fear which is a dark magic.

is this theory believable? you tell me