First, I would have Grogar actually be Grogar. Then Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow destroy him with his own power from the bell for Worf Effect. Then they catch Discord spying and drain his magic into the bell. The ponies will still get angry at him, but only for not telling them about the villains' plan which he knew of all along.

(Many would say make it Grogar, but they had their hearts set on three villains the Mane 6 already knew being their final enemy. And yes, Grogar wouldn't truly shine - but at least we'd GET an actual G4 Grogar!)

Second, have the rainbow blast, instead of just taking Grogar's magic away from Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow, either turn them to stone in itself (thus making it less of an "execution" than what we got) or destroy them like the Windigos. If the latter, then at some point, Cozy Glow would specify that she's really 900 and under eternal youth so we'd know she wasn't really as young as she appears (the writers have said this (aside from a specific age) to ease people's minds about her fate but a lot of people don't take their word as canon), and plus, then we can't really say she died early since she'd be older than Granny Smith.

That's just what I'd change if I could. What would you change about it, and please, no giving me or anyone else a hard time for differing answers.

7452387

but at least we'd GET an actual G4 Grogar

If you're just gonna wipe him out immediately there then there's really isn't a point. Discord being Grogar is a bullshit move for those of us who actually liked the G1 "Return of Tambelon", but having arguably one of the most dangerous and memorable villains of G1 just be instantly wiped out isn't exactly doing his character justice either. If you want to just have the Trio wipe out whoever got them united in the first place then have that character be a Literally Who created to be wiped, don't play on nostalgia and then pull the rug out and laugh at us for being G1 fans.

Cozy Glow would specify that she's really 900 and under eternal youth so we'd know she wasn't really as young as she appears

Great, yes, please, let's take away the only thing we actually know about her as a character.

Cozy Glow is already such a maligned character, I don't see why you'd want to throw her under the bus even more, or who really benefits from doing so.

Your version is better, but only because you're starting from such a rock bottom place with "The Ending of the End" that you can't really help but make improvements with anything that's suggested. This doesn't actually make for a better story. It just creates new problems; better than what's there, maybe, but still problems.

Ugh. Sorry, thinking about "The Ending of the End" really brings out the worst in me. I'm being mean. If this thread is still here tomorrow I'll write up my thoughts on how I'd fix things.

7452387
For me, I would have it so Luna and Celestia don't end up being absolute failures.
As in not get taken out TWICE like that.(No, distracting the trio doesn't fix that).
Have something huge for Luna due to how the show started out with her story in the book opening, it would have been so fitting if Luna has a huge hero moment(like her moment, not that terrible attempt of the writers going "See? They aren't useless : D").
Like coming full circle, with her beginning the show as a villain but ending it as a hero.

And that's just one change so far.

7452400
The only thing we know about her as a character is that she's a complete psychopath who uses her innocent, childlike appearance to fool and manipulate ponies. If she had a tragic backstory she'd have to reform (like Starlight, and people still think she shouldn't have been forgiven so can you blame the writers for not reforming a villain ten times worse than she ever was?) and that's not what they were going for here especially after the reception to Ahuizotl and Caballeron's redemptions. Besides, reforming them in the final episode would feel cheap as we would not get to see more of their reformed selves like with Discord, Sunset, and Starlight. Especially Chrysalis, who would ascend to her new form.

Also with how malicious and sadistic she is, any redemption story for her wouldn't be believable unless they threw in a backstory last second which would feel more rushed than Catrina's redemption in G1. And plus the writers said it, not me. (Well, not the exact age, just that she's not really that young, I say 900 because I first thought of her when rewatching Sailor Moon Crystal and they said Chibiusa's true age, and please don't judge (I know people hate that version of it).)

Anyway this is the ONLY reason people feel sorry for her, despite everything she did and tried to do without a shred of remorse (and with great pleasure at that), and being immune to the school's friendship lessons, where it took less to reform Discord. She knows she's evil and she's fine with it. So I feel that by removing her being an actual filly - as the writers did but people don't believe them - people would be more fine with her sharing Chrysalis and Tirek's fate.

If you want to say how you'd reform her and make her sympathetic, go ahead, that's what this thread is for.

As for Grogar, there's not really much else if they were going for Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow as main villains. But we could at least look at the positive points.

1.) We'd get a real G4 Grogar, even though he got overshadowed by three villains we already knew. Fans have been waiting for a G4 Grogar ever since G4 Tirek came in. At least this way we're rid of the disappointment that what we saw wasn't really Grogar, even though Discord presumably imitated him accurately.

2.) He's older than any of the other villains. Nightmare Moon, Discord, Sombra, Tirek, and the Pony of Shadows were imprisoned a thousand years ago, or a little over. Grogar would be several thousand years old, between his comment and Tirek having heard "legends" of him when he was young.

3.) He'd be the reason Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow unite for the final battle, AND the reason Sombra got to shine as main villain a second time with more screentime and lines (though I get that many disliked his new voice and pompous, arrogant personality in contrast to the Sauron pony we saw in Season 3). Without Grogar, the Legion of Doom could not have formed and given us the grand finale. People say Discord should have been turned to stone with them because he caused this whole mess. Well, if it had actually been Grogar, then even though he was overthrown before the invasion began, we could say Grogar caused the final conflict.

4.) On that note, it'd still be his power they'd get from the bell. Even as he is now in presumably a weakened state (if it had really been him), he'd be more powerful than Chrysalis and Tirek normally would be, and powerful enough to bring back the dead, release Tirek and Cozy Glow from Tartarus, and power up Tirek, but once they take his original magic from the bell they'd be even stronger than he is now and thus a huge threat, not through their own power, but through his.

5.) Lastly, the fact that he'd have resurrected Sombra would show that they made the G1 fanon of Grogar being a necromancer into a G4 canon. (Of course in reality it was Discord's godlike magic, some even think he created a clone of Sombra under his control)

Hmm. Well, if we're putting in our two cents on how we might have preferred the finale to go... I don't know how well my thoughts might stand up, but I'll leave them here for public dissection, why not.

For the start, I'd have Grogar actually be, in fact, Grogar. I profoundly dislike the he's-actually-Discord twist for a number of reasons, chiefly that's it's pretty stupid as far as twists go, that it portrays the other villains as dupes who deliberately had their redemption shot to hell in order to serve as pawns in someone else's game, that I like G1 and Grogar in particular and wasn't thrilled to have the rug pulled out under me like that, and that I happen to quite like Discord as a character and do not much appreciate having what was already a, ah, delicate character arc torpedoed the way it was.

So Grogar is Grogar. The terrible trio stage their coup as before, but he already knew what they were planning and had preparations in place -- let's say he placed a magical failsafe or ward on his bell to prevent it from being used against him or something. So he foils the coup, takes back the bell, scares the living daylights out of the other three, and states that he deliberately allowed the coup to get as far as it because he wanted them to fully understand how much he overpowers them. Then for extra wow factor, he uses the bell on a random rock that nobody had been paying attention to and which turns out to have been Discord in disguise, who was spying on them -- Grogar had been aware of him for some time, the others weren't. Discord chuckles nervously as the others close in, scene ends.

The rest of the episode continues as normal, as the trio sows division and distrust as in the aired episode while Grogar takes his bell and goes off to do plot things. The main characters are captured and meet Discord, who explains that he had been keeping tabs on the villains once he spotted them skulking around Equestria but hadn't figured he should tell the others because, well, after all they always successfully foil the villains at the most dramatic time. Sure he was keeping an eye on them just in case, but it wasn't really that much of a priority, what with the six's success record, right? Twilight appreciates the sentiment but tells Discord that this was a pretty stupid thing to do and he should have told them something. Discord admits that, yeah, in hindsight it was really pretty stupid.

Now the rest I'm kind of fuzzy on, but I generally have two paths in mind depending on whether the villains get redeemed or not:

The first option has the three be increasingly miserable under Grogar, who is a bad boss to work under -- he's demanding, terrifying and unforgiving. They don't particularly like him, they're mostly just afraid of him, but they come to realize that they do genuinely like each other. This is a slow and gradual realization for a number of reasons, not least of which the fact that Cozy's understanding of friendship is too warped for her to easily recognize the real thing and that Tirek and Chrysalis mostly just experienced it as something that worked against them and that was used by their enemies to take things from them, so they actively reject it. In general, there's both an active recoiling from the fuzzy feelings and a lot of emotional constipation that keeps them from actually working out what the fuzzy feelings are.

This goes on for the rest of the episode until the eventual showdown with the heroes. By now, the trio have almost completely realized that a) Grogar doesn't give a rat's ass about any of them, b) they actually quite like each other, and c) when they work together, they're much more effective than when they work alone. There's the same scene where all the allies the ponies made come to fight the villains, but the fight still turns against them and it looks like the villains will win. Grogar demands the others' aid in dealing the finishing blow, there's a moment of tension as they contemplate life as Grogar's minions... and then there's a big dramatic magic explosion as they embrace the friendship they'd been very awkwardly fostering and send a big rainbow friendship beam at Grogar, turning him to stone/sending him to Tartarus/banishing him to the shadow realm/whatever. They float to the ground, Chrysalis having gone drab to fab like the other 'lings, and once the heroes finish picking their jaws off the floor they hurry over to congratulate three extremely confused former villains. Then... hmm, let's say there's some question of what's going to happen going forward and the trio decides to travel for a bit, see what the world is like when you're not trying to conquer it. Maybe Tirek drops a line about checking in with a brother he hasn't seen in a very long time or something.

"The Last Problem" runs about the same as it did, but there's a scene where we see where the trio is at right now. Maybe they're still traveling or have settled down. If the second, say there's a picture in the background of Tirek smiling next to an older-looking Scorpan, maybe another of Chrysalis alongside a truly excessive number of changelings. Also, there's another scene in the Crystal Empire showing Cadence, Shining and a grown-up Flurry, because their absence was pretty weird.

Now, the second option -- say they don't reform. This could still be done well, but it would need to be handled very differently from how it was. Here I'd get Grogar out of the picture early, but how that happens I'm not too clear. Perhaps he's defeated first, and there's a second confrontation with the trio immediately after -- let's go with that. They key point in this scene is that the three are still in their full power, angry, and violent -- it's not even a tense standoff, it's a full-on fight with words only gotten in edgewise. The ponies try to get them to stand down, point out that, look, they've lost already, Grogar is down, this is going nowhere, surely they could at least try standing down and talking or something? The trio refuses to be talked down, however, and unleash a last spiteful attack, forcing the ponies to send a big rainbow friendship beam the other way, and when the dust clears the three are statues. Another key detail here is that Twilight is expressly unhappy with this -- she's aware that she gave the three a chance to at least talk and that they were the ones to escalate the situation and force their imprisonment, but she still doesn't like that this is how it had to end and doesn't accept that this is the final word on the matter.

"The Last Problem" is a bit more different in this version. In this case, the petrified trio is still around as statues, but Twilight mentions that she still thinks there some good buried deep, deep, deep inside them somewhere and she's certain that the right stimuli can bring it out -- maybe not now, maybe not soon, but someday there's going to be the right person to help them do this. The implication would be that she's hoping Luster will be the one to succeed where she didn't.

7452440
How would things go for Luna and Celestia in this too?
Given how they were handled pretty badly too in the finale actually..

7452440
That is actually pretty clever. This way no morals are stumbled upon and the ending is not hypocritical as what we got.

The only thing we know about her as a character is that she's a complete psychopath who uses her innocent, childlike appearance to fool and manipulate ponies.

And that she's a kid.

Cozy Glow: "I'm just a kid, so..."

There's also the fact that assuming even the lowest degree of competence from Twilight's friendship school would still mean that it would have sought permission from Cozy Glow's parents or legal guardians. Cozy Glow is a kid not just because she acts like a kid and not just because she outright stated that she's a kid, but because the narrative of Season 8 doesn't make sense unless she's a kid, there's no other way for her to have been enrolled in the School of Friendship without jumping through hoops describing some immense con that Cozy pulled off to fake her parents' permission that we never saw happen and have no reason to suspect happened.

Furthermore revealing her to be really 900 years old and therefore it's okay to kill her, is a cop-out. It's pulling new information out of nowhere that hasn't been established and clashes badly with the established character - if Cozy was gonna reveal that she was actually 900 years old then you'd think she would have done it in "Frenemies", you know, the episode where she actually opens up and talks about herself and her wants.

especially after the reception to Ahuizotl and Caballeron's redemptions

The problem with Ahuizotl and Caballeron's redemptions is that it was a badly written episode, and in the case of Ahuizotl the problem is exactly what I described would be the problem with Cozy Glow: Ahuizotl's redemption depended on adding new information about the character in the eleventh hour that drastically changed the character but is something that should have come up before. Ahuizotl as a "guardian" doesn't make a lot of sense given his previous depictions. And also "Daring Doubt" was a badly written episode.

It's not that people don't like redemptions, what they don't like is poorly written redemptions, redemptions that feel unearned and rushed. More on that below.

just that she's not really that young

No, what the writers said was that she was modeled on Baby Doll from Batman: the Animated Series, who was an adult but had a disease that made her look perpetually like a child. The difference is that Baby Doll's situation is played up as a tragedy that broke her mind, the fact that she can never grow up and never be treated like the adult that she is mentally because how how she appears physically. The episode where she debuted ended with her realizing how insane she'd been acting, breaking down into tears, and turning and hugging Batman while essentially begging him to help her. It is one of the best episodes of TAS, and Haber and co showed how terrible they were by taking from Baby Doll's character merely the idea of a villainous child.

Haber and co explicitly stated that they never came up with any backstory for Cozy Glow. They don't know if she's a child or an adult because they didn't care to think it up. But the information actually in the show all leans towards her being the child she appears to be, so that's what should be stuck with, not an eleventh-hour reveal done just to make us feel better about killing someone.

Because let's not mince words here, that is what we're looking for in your version: excuses and justifications to not feel bad about ending three lives.

Anyway this is the ONLY reason people feel sorry for her

No, it isn't, and the fact that the "let's kill Cozy Glow" camp keeps chanting this over and over will not make it true. I feel sorry for Cozy Glow for the same reason that I feel sorry for Tirek - because neither were ever even given a shot at redemption by Our Heroes. Not once did anyone hold out hoof or hand or claw and try and convince either of them to be better. In Cozy's case, Twilight just hears the tantrum of a clearly unbalanced child who didn't get her way, states that she failed Cozy, and then apparently gives up completely on ever getting through to her, and no attempt was even made in the first place with Tirek.

This in spite of the fact that this same Twilight Sparkle once held all of Equestria in one hoof and the life of a single pony who didn't deserve to be saved in the other, and Twilight chose to rescue the pony instead of all of Equestria. Apparently when Twilight has no power and only two choices she's capable of doing the right thing, but when Twilight has all the power and all the choices she just doesn't give two shits.

Anyway. Next post I'll describe how I'd fix the finale.

Okay, there's a lot of ways to go about fixing the finale largely because there's a lot of problems. Chiefly, here's what I see as the four main problems that need to be addressed, in order of importance.

1. The lack of mercy afforded to the Trio. Not once in the finale of a show entitled "Friendship is Magic" did anyone try and make friends. Success or failure to actually reach them is irrelevant, the problem is that no one tried.
2. The complete derailment of Discord's character, by revealing that he had orchestrated the entire thing with the mere goal of using the Trio as disposable minions who's fates he did not care about, and that he had already orchestrated the death of Sombra in order to threaten the other three, as well as played and preyed upon the emotions of his supposed friends (including Fluttershy) and endangered the Crystal Empire and Equestria generally. Simply put, Discord comes across as the most monstrous character in the entire series for his actions here.
3. The lack of respect afforded to Cadance's character, but also Celestia and Luna as well. Between the Crystal Heart and Cadance's love-spell, merely being near to Cadance should probably cause Windigos to burst into flame, while the Crystal Heart seems almost tailor-made to fight Windigos, so the fact that Twilight turns to Cadance and tells her to keep Flurry Heart safe as their potential last hope is just bullshit (I like to imagine Cadance looking at Twilight after that and just mumbling "...bitch."). Likewise Celestia and Luna jobbing so hard to Cozy just makes them look incompetent. Something has to be done here.
4. The lack of true Grogar. Playing on the nostalgia of G1 fans just to pull the rug out from under us and laugh at us for being stupid in thinking that Grogar was actually gonna come back is, to put things bluntly, a dick move.

This is a lot of things to tackle but I think it can be done.

First, we have to remove Discord as having orchestrated all of this (or rather we don't have to, but we don't have the time needed to do everything we necessarily want to). Even in a better-case scenario where we change his motivation to "he was trying to teach the Trio friendship", that still leaves him as having resurrected Sombra only to orchestrate his death just to threaten the Trio, and in the meantime while Sombra was alive stood by and did nothing as Sombra conquered and enslaved the Crystal Empire and Equestria (and remember, Sombra's mind control works by forcing you to live through your worst fear over and over again), destroyed the Tree of Harmony, and of course requires that Discord play with and manipulate the emotions of his friends, including Fluttershy.

Friendship is Magic, as a show, just isn't equipped to handle dealing with the implications of Discord being even that monstrous while still supposedly being good, nevermind if we keep his original motivation of "use the Trio as disposable minions". Fortunately this plays directly into one of our other directives, bringing in Grogar as actual Grogar.

I understand the desire to have the Trio be the true final threat, I really do, and I can even agree with the sentiment - but if all I'm doing is rewriting the finale then I can't take that route because I'm stuck with Grogar being around. Replacing Grogar with some Literally Who or, better yet, just having Chrysalis and a resurrected Sombra be the ones to free Cozy and Tirek and concoct this plan to work together, would be more ideal, but we're sticking strictly with "The Ending of the End". We've established Grogar, we've built up Grogar, we've catered to the expectations of G1 fans, we are not going to just erase Grogar just to be sUbVERsiVE and mock G1 fans for getting their dumb hopes up.

One final thing. We have a lot of ground to cover and this finale should feel special. So as a result, this finale should be a three-parter rather than a two-parter. This means either eliminating an earlier episode (my vote is one of "Daring Doubt", "The Last Crusade", "Growing Up is Hard to Do", or "Dragon Dropped"), or eliminating "The Last Problem" (which I actually don't really have much of an issue with as an episode but it's overall pretty weak and I feel we can stand to lose it)

Right, let's begin...

We open as we did in "The Ending of the End", with Chrysalis working to subvert Equestria's apparently fragile unity (which is another problem but one we don't have time to address), and then returning to the cave, where Tirek has been working on unlocking the power of Grogar's bell and has apparently succeeded in learning the spell. The Trio prepare to utilize the bell, but that's when Grogar returns and reveals that he's known about their plan and the fact that they had the bell the entire time.

Grogar: [while holding aloft his palantír] "Did you really think I would be so stupid as to not keep my eye on you when you went to Mount Everhoof? That I have not been watching three creatures known for their treachery this whole time?"
Tirek: "But then, why didn't you take the Bell after we got back - "
Grogar: "Because it served my purposes!" [uses magic to seize the bell and, in spite of the Trio's efforts, returns it to himself and puts it on] "When Gusty the Great stole my bell she ensured that I could not access its power without the correct spell. That spell was sealed away in the Canterlot Archives where I had no hope of reaching it - so I must give my genuine compliments on the fact that you were."
Cozy Glow: "Aw, thanks!"
Chrysalis: "That was your plan this whole time?!"
Grogar: "Of course not! That was just a happy accident. I had intended to retrieve my bell and restore my full power after our conquest of Equestria, when I had access to the Royal Archives. The three of you constantly bickering moved up my plans on the retrieval of the bell...and now I see that my plan to get you to work together has worked too well. You are friends!"
The Trio: [while glaring at each other] "No we're not!"
Grogar: "Fine, engage in your foolish self-deceptions. That doesn't matter - what matters is that you tried to betray me! I was relying upon you because I had no other choice in the face of the power of Twilight Sparkle's friendship...but now I do. I no longer need any of you! But I also see no reason not to hedge my bets. So I'm giving you this one last chance: You will aid me in seizing Equestria...or I will end you, here and now! Your choice?"

The Trio submit to Grogar's power, though they are visibly incensed at having been so thoroughly played. Grogar at least notes that their initiative may prove useful after all, and has allowed him to accelerate his plans: the corruption of Equestria by Chrysalis and Cozy Glow will indeed make its conquest easier, while Tirek has inadvertently massively boosted Grogar's power. They will move against Twilight and her friends immediately.

So there's some fertile seeds planted here. We keep the idea that Grogar isn't someone to be trifled with while still giving him a fatal flaw of hubris. Now that he's so thoroughly demonstrated his power and canniness compared to the Trio he thinks he has no more reason to fear them; he thinks that he's always one step ahead of them. At the same time we have established firmly for the audience, and the Trio, something that the audience already picked up on throughout "Frenemies" and in "The Summer Sun Setback": that the Trio, in spite of their best efforts and personal denials, really are friends now. That niggling little fact will eat away at them and inform their actions throughout "The Ending of the End."

From here Grogar will act to eliminate Twilight's allies. He sends the Trio out via teleportation to deal with the Pillars of Equestria one at a time rather than allowing them to unite and actually pose a threat, which is accomplished in a montage. We see Chrysalis' shapeshifting, Cozy Glow's planning, and Tirek's brute power is enough to overcome five of the six, who each put up a decent fight but are outmatched and outgunned on their own. However breaking the montage with Star Swirl we get a brief exchange between Tirek and Star Swirl to remind us of their backstory.

Tirek: [standing over a defeated Star Swirl] "This is for turning my brother against me!"
Star Swirl: "You are the reason Scorpan betrayed you."

The Pillars are of course merely cocooned by Chrysalis, not killed, it's not that kind of show. They are returned to Grogar's lair where Grogar can pontificate about his power to them and how his magic outclasses even Star Swirl's. However the other reason why we had a brief break with Star Swirl is because Stygian was hanging out with him at the time, and he's able to slink away unnoticed by the Trio (and probably at Star Swirl's insistence to leave him so he can buy time). Stygian is therefore able to inform Twilight and everyone else that the Trio are loose and working together.

Without knowing where the Trio are based, Twilight dials up Discord for help in finding it so that they can free the Pillars. Discord thinks that there's something fishy going on, though, and notes as much: how are the three of them working together instead of constantly fighting? He highlights how back in his villain days he wouldn't exactly have gotten along with any of them. There's only one world to take over, after all, but three of them. Celestia and Luna both agree and realize that there must be something even more powerful then the three of them combined directing them, but they have no idea what.

That's when a royal guard comes rushing in and says that Ponyville is under attack by the Trio. Discord, Twilight and her friends, and Celestia and Luna all head out to Ponyville, Discord using his magic to warp them there immediately.

Cutting back to Ponyville, we see that the Trio have cornered Starlight, Trixie, and Sunburst, as well as the Student Six, Starlight and Sunburst working overtime to maintain a shield while Trixie (in a bit of comedy) is counseling the students to remain calm and actually is remaining calm herself, on account of having been in a bad situation like this before so "this is all old hat for the Calm and Collected Trixie." Meanwhile outside the other students of the school have largely fled.

Chrysalis is shown as the one who wants to get at Starlight more than anything else to the point of practically being rabid about it, which gets on Tirek and Cozy Glow's nerves and in the course of arguing with her over her rage get Chrysalis to sort-of accidentally open up about why she hates Starlight so much, that Starlight stole everything from her - her throne, her minions, her very sense of self-identity as the creature who found food for the changelings. The breakdown is played kind of jokingly.

Tirek: "I don't understand why you're so mad - "
Chrysalis: "That's rich coming from you, Lord 'This is for turning my brother against me'!"
Tirek: "Well Star Swirl did!"
Chrysalis: "And that sow turned every changeling against me! Took my throne! My Hive! My purpose - finding food for the changelings - but it's fine, I've found a new purpose, it's ending Starlight Glimmer!" [attacks shield]
Cozy Glow: "Okay! But seriously do you really think just pounding on the shield is gonna help?"
Chrysalis: "It makes me feel better!"

The Trio are interrupted by the arrival of the Mane-6, Celestia and Luna, and Discord. By this point Tirek has absorbed enough magic (from the Pillars) that he can seriously challenge Celestia and Luna directly, while Chrysalis deals with the Mane-6. Discord gets ready to intervene but is suddenly pulled away through a magic portal.

Starlight Glimmer, Trixie, Sunburst, and the Young Six want to help, but Cozy has stayed behind and is literally just standing in their way, on top of a box, and smiling at them, commenting on how she's been left all alone and now she has all this to deal with and there's no way she can stop them...which is enough to unnerve the other creatures as they fall into debating among themselves whether or not Cozy has some kind of trick prepared for them or if making them think she has a trick is the trick. Cozy Glow occasionally puts in her own commentary to draw things out.

Meanwhile, Discord has been dragged to outside of town, where Grogar is waiting for him.

Discord: "Grogar...? This is a surprise. I had no idea that the Father of Monsters was still around. So that's why that terrible trio are working together..."
Grogar: "Discord, the Lord of Chaos...or should I instead say the Lord of bowing down to the will of ponies?"
Discord: "Oh puh-leaze, don't tell me you're going to try and convince me to join you? Tirek already tried that."
Grogar: "And succeeded."
Discord: "Yes - and it was the biggest mistake of my life. I won't be making it again."
Grogar: "I don't imagine you will. It may please you to know that figuring out how to deal with you was the biggest hurdle to my plan to conquer Equestria. The Lord of Chaos is not to be trifled with."
Discord: "And yet you're going to anyway. Well, alright, trifle away..."
Grogar: "Since I have your permission..."

Grogar's horns and bell light up and he blasts Discord with the exact same spell that Starlight once used to banish Discord. Just like with Starlight, the effect only gets rid of Discord's physical body, however, it doesn't stop him from fighting back against Grogar like some kind of poltergeist, which Grogar does battle with as well, seemingly losing as he retreats back across the fields which warp from Discord's influence, Discord taunting Grogar the entire time until he finally just highlights how Grogar is losing to a poltergeist, does he really want to keep embrassing himself. Seemingly giving in, Grogar returns Discord's body...right on top of a magic circle that Grogar had prepared. His plan had been to lull Discord into a false sense of superiority so he wouldn't notice what was happening. Activating the magic, Grogar encases Discord in stone, sealing him away.

Back at the battle, Tirek is being overwhelmed by Celestia and Luna working together while Chrysalis is overwhelmed by the Mane-6. Trixie, meanwhile, is fed up with Cozy Glow's antics and finally just pushes past the little hellion, revealing that in fact Cozy apparently had nothing up her sleeves and was just delaying them. When Starlight goes to point out how it seems to have largely been poinltess since Tirek and Chrysalis are losing anyway, Cozy asks where Discord is.

At that moment, Grogar returns with Discord's statue in tow.

Right, so that's the end of Part 1 and it's taken up most of the time I have before I have to go to work. I'll write up Part 2 some time tomorrow, and then Part 3 either tomorrow or Sunday.

7452599
Looks really good.

Though worried the Royal Sisters will get taken out..
They kept suffering failure after failure(or get sidelined) throughout the show when a bad guy causes trouble.
Hurts worse for Luna's case due to she returned from the moon only to suffer that alot, losing a 1000 years of ruling.
Even if they didn't easily get taken out and gave it their all, its still bad they would lose since they already suffer failure alot(and the fact this is the flipping series finale), it just hammers it in that Luna and Celestia will always be failures no matter how hard they try.
The finale could have had something for Luna due to how she kicked the show off as a villain, having her end it as a big her would have made things come fullcircle.

Wonder what you got for Spike in this?
I feel like he shouldn't be brushing off what happened to him in Beginning Of The End, it just shows he will always be in the girls' shadows no matter how hard he tries due to not being a "chosen one" like them, not being a Element Bearer.
Like he should have issues or there be repercussions on how he got brainwashed like that.
Would you also touch on why Spike got included in the final rainbow laser? I wished the show did that..

I feel like Chrysalis should get to know that she lost everything because of Spike. He befriended Thorax which ultimately led the hive to reform. Planting the seed, all Starlight done is just water it.
What I hate hard about To Where And Back Again is how Spike got robbed hard in favor of Starlight there. Chrysalis or Sombra could have been Spike's nemesis due to its ultimately him that foiled them but the writers had Chrysalis focus too much on Starlight while Sombra didn't even notice AT ALL.

As MisAnthroPony had stated in a video, Discord being Grogar, no matter how you look at it, is the worst writing decision. There's no way they can make it work while not making Discord look bad. Grogar being stupid is just plain anti-climatic, so if they want to focus on the trio, they could just come with a nobody that's trying too hard. Like Storm King!

Honestly the best change would be to just reform the trio or better yet, force them to team up with the Main 6 against Grogar, who should have been real all along. It was a perfect opportunity that they squandered there.

7452430

she's a complete psychopath

There is no evidence that she is a psycho. It's possible, but not 100% and given her seeming guilt at decieving the CMC and the fact that she was shown to enjoy helping others near the end of Frenemies I'd argue that she actually isn't one.

If she had a tragic backstory she'd have to reform (like Starlight, and people still think she shouldn't have been forgiven so can you blame the writers for not reforming a villain ten times worse than she ever was?) and that's not what they were going for here especially after the reception to Ahuizotl and Caballeron's redemptions.

For starters, the reason people hate Ahuizotl and Calalleron's is because they came out of nowhere and felt completely pointless. Cozy meanwhile had Frenemies, her youngness and the previously mentioned moment with the CMC. In other words, she had proper buildup and a great opportunity to reform. Also, the fact that the heroes gave chances to Starlight, Discord, Tempest and Stygian and actual help to rehabilitate while trying literally nothing with Cozy paints them as hypocrits.

reforming them in the final episode would feel cheap as we would not get to see more of their reformed selves

We literally got an epilogue episode half set in the future.

Also with how malicious and sadistic she is, any redemption story for her wouldn't be believable

She was no worse then Starlight and Discord at their worst.

Anyway this is the ONLY reason people feel sorry for her

Speak for yourself. People also feel bad for Chrysalis and Tirek and some even for Sombra.

everything she did and tried to do without a shred of remorse (and with great pleasure at that)

Like Discord?

As for her age, there is more evidence pointing towards her being a kid then some 900 year old adult in a foal's body.

7452698

There is no evidence that she is a psycho. It's possible, but not 100% and given her seeming guilt at decieving the CMC and the fact that she was shown to enjoy helping others near the end of Frenemies I'd argue that she actually isn't one.

Probably the only thing keeping the rainbow from destroying her like the Windigos and, for a similar attack, Sombra, but she also resisted it (unlike Discord) and was immune to the friendship lessons at the School of Friendship.

Also, the fact that the heroes gave chances to Starlight, Discord, Tempest and Stygian and actual help to rehabilitate while trying literally nothing with Cozy paints them as hypocrits.

We don't know Celestia and Luna didn't try before throwing her in Tartarus. Starlight wasn't pure evil in her first appearance, and while she was more of a threat in her second, a tragic backstory was made clear. Tempest also had a tragic backstory. As for Discord, he never tried to kill anyone and seemed more mischievous than outright evil. Celestia wasn't 100% sure he could be reformed - she considered it a possibility but told the Mane 6 they could turn him back to stone if he could not be reformed.

And remember Twilight did ask Cozy Glow's motivation like she did with Starlight and Tempest.

Twilight Sparkle: But I still don't understand why.
Cozy Glow: Why?! Because friendship is power! You might be the Princess of Friendship, but as headmare of this school, I can collect even more friends than you!
Twilight Sparkle: You're the one who doesn't get it, Cozy. Friendship is powerful, but power isn't why you make friends. I'm sorry I couldn't teach you that.

She was no worse then Starlight and Discord at their worst.

Starlight was shocked when she saw her effect on the future. She did seem to try to kill some of the ponies in Our Town, sure, but while I won't attempt to justify it, she looked furious, where Cozy Glow was grinning sadistically when she tried to kill Twilight on more than one occasion, and planned to kill the other Mane 5, including Fluttershy and Spike. As for Discord, yes, he had fun causing chaos and disharmony and turning Mane 6 against each other, but he never tried to kill anyone, and some made the excuse for him before his redemption episode that he was just doing what came naturally as the Spirit of Disharmony. (Which he'd later learn more harmless ways once introduced to friendship, and he was far less resistant to it than she was, even when Tirek tricked him into betraying the ponies he showed some discomfort BEFORE Tirek betrayed him)

Speak for yourself. People also feel bad for Chrysalis and Tirek and some even for Sombra.

Maybe some, but the majority of people who disliked their (not likely so final) fate were mainly upset because Cozy Glow is (supposedly) a filly.

As for her age, there is more evidence pointing towards her being a kid then some 900 year old adult in a foal's body.

I know what she said but she could've either been keeping up an act or referring to her physical body. The writers said she's older, and plus, we never see her parents, so even if she is the age she physically appears, it's likely she killed her parents (probably confessed this to Celestia and Luna with a smile on her face, as they likely would've asked who and where they were after her first defeat). But that's perfectly excusable because she's just a kid and doesn't know any better, right?

7452560
Also, if the rainbow was what destroyed them, it would be like it was friendship's automatic effect on them rather than a conscious decision specifically to kill them (similar to Sombra both times), and would still be less of an "execution" then them being turned to stone the way they were.

And even if she is as young as she physically appears, she should have lost any sympathy when she says to the other Mane 5 and Spike, including Fluttershy, with this disturbing grin on her face:

And now for your complete destruction! Won't that be fun?

I cannot feel the slightest bit sorry for someone like that regardless of age. (Exception being Envy in FMA Brotherhood, but that was because he was so pitiful in his final moments and I'm over it now) She knows she's evil and she's fine with it, even if she is really that young she is also extremely intelligent and knows what she's doing and just how malicious her actions are, and loves it. It arguably makes her even worse that she continued to choose this over friendship after getting a taste of the latter and nearly enko, like how Ego killed the only woman he ever loved so he wouldn't be tempted to stop his genocidal plans, and he murdered his own children for being powerless.

I don't think their near-friendship moment was meant to be taken too seriously - just teasing us with the idea of reforming them, knowing over half the fans didn't want it. (A lot of you might've wanted them reformed, and I'd have been fine with that (which I'm sure will happen in the G5 movie), but there would have been a bigger outrage if they had reformed, due to fans being tired of all the redemptions we get over the course of the series (forgetting how much we now love Discord and Sunset), especially Trixie, Starlight, Garble, Caballeron, and Ahuizotl. One person even assumed they'd automatically take this path with the Storm King (where I was pretty sure Tempest would get the obligatory redemption and not him), saying "How in the world are they going to reform him?" And being surprised when he was falling to his death even though he wasn't without precedent.

And, so, anyone who's still able to feel sorry for Cozy Glow, or Chrysalis and Tirek for that matter, remember, unless G5 says otherwise (and they're almost certainly releasing them for redemption), you can headcanon that Luna's setting them to share a dream, so their true punishment is being together forever in the same dream world (less of a horrific torment than Discord suffered when HE was a statue for a thousand years), and perhaps after a few years of comically fighting they'll finally open their hearts to friendship and subsequently be released when Twilight enters their dream and realizes their redemption.

Unless Twilight died before they could and no one's entering dreams in her place, but then Izzy might sense this and release them, hence "making new friends out of old enemies", and we could get a full series (at least two seasons) with their reformed selves/Chrysalis's ascended form present.

Or you could headcanon a fanfic of it. But you might not have to if you're willing to go by G5 as canon because I'm 90% sure they're releasing them for redemption to appease the fans upset with it, and the more who don't want them reformed can FanonDiscontinuity it, though it would've been smarter to wait until an episode for this as going by the movie alone would mean Sunny, Izzy, and Pipp "exist" in your headcanon.

7452752

And even if she is as young as she physically appears, she should have lost any sympathy when she says to the other Mane 5 and Spike, including Fluttershy, with this disturbing grin on her face:

And now for your complete destruction! Won't that be fun?

I cannot feel the slightest bit sorry for someone like that regardless of age

Honestly, I have to call a double standard there. This isn't in any meaningful way different from what all other major villains have said or done -- if it's acceptable for, say, Nightmare Moon or Discord to be sympathized with or reformed after actively attempting to kill or break other characters and taking very open and explicit joy in the thought of doing so, why is Cozy any different?

7452791
Nightmare Moon is either a separate entity manifested from Luna's bitterness and jealousy (and thus died when Luna was purified) or Luna corrupted, with her jealousy magnified similar to Demon Sunset, or, going by the comics, possessed by an entity from the moon, so she's not quite the same. Discord, again, didn't try to kill them, though he did turn them into the opposite of their true selves, but aside from that he seemed more mischievous than outright malicious, and he was far less resistant to friendship's influence than Cozy Glow.

And I think I do remember Starlight taking pleasure in altering time and breaking apart Twilight's friendships, but she was pretty shocked when she saw the bigger consequences to altering time, and what it would mean for Equestria as a whole, and plus, Twilight asked both of them their motivation, and while Starlight gave a tragic backstory, Cozy Glow did not. And yet these same people who think the trio should have been reformed think Starlight shouldn't have been forgiven (I disagree - I believe in forgiveness, but some are beyond redemption and don't want it).

And it's not just what Cozy Glow said or how she said it - it's who she said it to. Not only Spike (which is G1 Tirek levels of villainy), but Fluttershy, the cutest, kindest, most sensitive pony around, not to mention the pony who reformed Discord and repeatedly won Teacher of the Month (even ignoring Non-Compete Clause as I do, there's the "fix-it" mini episode that depicts this as well, and who can blame them? She's so lovable). Who would want to hurt her? I mean, yes, Gilda reformed, and even Rainbow Dash was pretty mean to her in 28 Pranks Later (which I really disliked), but still.

7452895
Luna herself doesn’t treat it as either. The entire point of the Tantabus is Luna punishing herself for her actions; if she were merely corrupted or possessed then creating the Tantabus wouldn’t make sense, and further Luna’s own dialogue is always very clear that she does not consider Nightmare Moon a separate entity. When talking about Nightmare Moon she always says “I” or “me”.

Discord mind-raped people. And I am using the word “rape” very deliberately. Discord invades minds and twists them to his own desires, violating them and forcing his will onto them, and he didn’t limit himself to the Mane-6 - remember Big Mac or Granny Smith? Discord, further, showed his true colors when he grew fed up with Fluttershy and just mind-raped her outright rather than “corrupt” her like he did to the other five. By doing that to Fluttershy he made it clear that he could have just instantly corrupted the Mane-6 on a whim at any time, but he instead chose to torment and corrupt them first. Discord’s Wonderland is, furthermore, by a wide margin the worst possible of all Equestria’s. Sure, Cozy Glow might create a world without magic, but at least in that world you can depend on basic physics still working. You don’t have to question whether sneezing will make your house fall down or fly into the sky, or whether you’ll be able to even grow crops because the earth might turn to bubblegum...or whether at any moment a mad chaos god might show up and think it would be funnier if you thought you were a giraffe.

I’d live a thousand years in Cozy’s post-magic wasteland before I lived a day in Discord’s Wonderland. I might die in Cozy’s wasteland but at least I’ll know what’s killing me and my mind will remain my own. In Discord’s Wonderland, I cannot trust even my own thoughts.

Who would want to hurt her?

Off the top of my head:

Nightmare Moon tried to get her eaten by a manticore or killed in a rock slide.
Discord mind-raped her into submission to his will.
Chrysalis would happily feed off her love, as would almost any changeling pre-reformation
Sombra certainly would have
Tirek...oddly, would not from what we know, actually. He had several opportunities but never did other than to drain her magic.
Starlight Glimmer was more than happy to shove her into a brainwashing chamber deprived of food or water until she submitted, after stealing her cutie mark
Tempest Shadow tried to kill her multiple times
Discord demonstrated he was perfectly okay with deceiving her and manipulating her emotions to achieve his own ends.
Ahuizotl had no issues with attacking her and only relented when he was physically unable to continue his attack.

And you yourself provided the examples of Gilda and Rainbow Dash, further, showing it’s not all supervillains. Plenty of other ponies have also been willing to be rude or dismissive towards her, such as Bon Bon.

Fluttershy is not sacrosanct, and if you’re trying to suggest she is then I hate to say it but your bias is showing.

7452912
I see no need to continue the debate as we're getting WAY off-topic, but Chrysalis and Sombra are also among the unreformed. Chrysalis only disapproved Cozy Glow killing her because she wanted to torture her, and Sombra similarly grinned when he tried to kill her. Even if this was just to get Discord to take the hit for her, he made clear he intended to kill her afterwards.

Long story short: Feel sorry for her? Think she's redeemable? I provided a headcanon you can go by, until the show releases her for redemption, which it will. All of you who want them reformed will be appeased, then there'll be bigger outrage from those who didn't but they can atleast FD it.

7452987

Headcanon

Sticking my fingers in my ears and going “LALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” isn’t a solution to the problem. Nothing about the Trio actually presents them as irredeemable, they simply weren’t redeemed - that’s not the same thing. Claiming they’re irredeemable is the headcanon, and headcanon isn’t a delusion I indulge in regardless.

7452739

We don't know Celestia and Luna didn't try before throwing her in Tartarus.

Considering that they showed the CMC getting out of Tartarus presumably that very morning, its safe to assume that Cozy was sentenced that very night so probably not much if anything at all.

Starlight wasn't pure evil in her first appearance, and while she was more of a threat in her second, a tragic backstory was made clear.

Some friend moving away isn't that tragic as far as major villain backstories go. Honestly I'd say the implication that Tirek wanted to impress his father is far more tragic to me. Either way, she manipulated and lied to an entire village of ponies while being willing to go as far as attack them when they opposed her.

As for Discord, he never tried to kill anyone and seemed more mischievous than outright evil.

You could argue that Cozy only tried to kill when she was facing strong opponents that she couldn't afford to hold back against. I point to those guards she incapacitated instead of seriously hurt. As for Discord, considering the worldwide chaos, the brainwashing he put on the Main 6 and the way he threatened, made false promises to and manipulated the trio shows more malice then just mischief.

Celestia wasn't 100% sure he could be reformed - she considered it a possibility but told the Mane 6 they could turn him back to stone if he could not be reformed.

But thats the thing, she at least gave him a chance. Tirek in comparison was also locked up for a very long time, but not even an attempt to visit his cell to reform him was ever made. This just makes it look like the only reason Discord was allowed to be put into a rehabilitation program was because his powers could be useful, which would give credence to Cozy's philosophy of friendship being power, which was framed in the show to be wrong.

And remember Twilight did ask Cozy Glow's motivation like she did with Starlight and Tempest.

But she made no attempt to help her change or offer her any sort of second chacne. With Starlight, she was practically forced to rehabilitate her and with Tempest she at least tried to convince her to abandon Storm King (which of course, failed).

Starlight was shocked when she saw her effect on the future.

Yet, she still almost went through with it afterwards.

where Cozy Glow was grinning sadistically when she tried to kill Twilight on more than one occasion, and planned to kill the other Mane 5, including Fluttershy and Spike.

Again, the only time she actually tried to kill them was in the middle of a big fight, where they weren't exactly going easy on her either.

As for Discord, yes, he had fun causing chaos and disharmony and turning Mane 6 against each other, but he never tried to kill anyone, and some made the excuse for him before his redemption episode that he was just doing what came naturally as the Spirit of Disharmony.

Doing horrible things for fun is arguably worse then doing it for a point and Chrysalis being a love eating changeling was never showed as an excuse for her actions. Discord was shown to be able to cause chaos without doing those things.

Maybe some, but the majority of people who disliked their (not likely so final) fate were mainly upset because Cozy Glow is (supposedly) a filly.

I don't know, considering the amount of people wanting Chrysalis to reform says otherwise.

I know what she said but she could've either been keeping up an act or referring to her physical body.

But there was no implication or buildup of any sorts that pointed to her actually being an adult as opposed to her being a kid. Having it as a sudden reveal would come out of nowhere.

The writers said she's older

They never explicidly stated that nor was it ever mentioned in the show.

we never see her parents, so even if she is the age she physically appears, it's likely she killed her parents

She could easily be an orphan. It's not like we've seen Scootaloo's family for many seasons. And what makes you think she killed her parents? Wouldn't she have gotten caught because of that before season 8? And considering the show's rating that would realistically be highly unlikely to be the official backstory for her.

7452739
Oh really? They weren't clear that she's a midget then.

7453035
Did you not listen to me clearly? I said if you think they are redeemable, you can say that Luna set them to share a dream to leave open chance of their redemption (and, if they are beyond redemption, to further punish them by being conscious of being together forever), and, perhaps after a few years of comically fighting each other, finally become friends with each other and open their hearts to the magic of friendship, and then Twilight will notice this entering their dreams, and release them. Show me a little appreciation for taking the time to come up with something like this even though I'm satisfied with an eternal dreamless stone sleep.

And even without this headcanon, 90% sure G5 is going to release them for redemption. One that anyone not wanting them reformed will find hard to swallow unless they play it like I said, except that Twilight died before she could find out and no one's been entering dreams since, then Izzy either senses friendship radiating from their statue or releases them hoping to create a threat to unite the ponies (like the Windigos unintentionally did in the past, but they're dead now).

7453178
So Cozy Glow was in the middle of a fight with the other Mane 5 and Spike when they were her prisoners and utterly powerless to do anything against her. I mean, yes, one could call it an execution, similar to the three of them being turned to stone, but still, and she really would have enjoyed killing these ponies who represent harmony and saved Equestria many times. Right before petrification Chrysalis swore to return and threaten Equestria again.

They never explicidly stated that nor was it ever mentioned in the show.

That is precisely why I would have it mentioned in the episode if I could change things. Even if I didn't destroy them and kept them being turned to stone, I'd mention it so no one would feel sorry for her, or at least no more than Chrysalis and Tirek, because they think her supposed age excuses her malicious actions which she is very aware of.

Aside from saying Celestia, with her wisdom and ability to sense a change in Discord, determined those three were irredeemble, where Discord she wasn't sure about but considered a chance (and again, while he lacks a tragic backstory and enjoyed what he did, once he got a taste of friendship he couldn't resist it where they did, Cozy Glow even after attending the friendship school), and it's RARE she's ever in a punishing mood, I won't argue any other points - clearly you stand by this and I will say, headcanon that Luna set them to share a dream, that, after a few years of comically fighting each other, they become friends with each other and reform, and Twilight notices this by entering their dreams and releases them. I almost want to write a fanfic of this myself but I'm not super great at writing redemptions, they always feel rushed.

Or, if you're willing to go by G5 as canon, wait and see because they're most likely releasing them for redemption in the movie, based on the synopsis saying "making new friends out of old enemies", and even if this isn't what it refers to in the movie, G5's writers, which aren't the same as G4's, will be bronies and pegasisters and want to pander to the fans who outraged that they didn't reform them. Of course they'll get bigger backlash BY reforming them, but you can't please everypony, and they can just FanonDiscontinuity anything starting from their redemption episode, though if this is in the movie this gets rid of Sunny, Izzy, and Princess Pipp for you as well. Or it might just ignore Seasons 8 and 9 altogether.

7453490

So Cozy Glow was in the middle of a fight with the other Mane 5 and Spike when they were her prisoners and utterly powerless to do anything against her.

Saying is not the same as actually doing. Also, the heroes seemed to have no issue stoning her when she was in an arguably weaker position.

I'd mention it so no one would feel sorry for her, or at least no more than Chrysalis and Tirek, because they think her supposed age excuses her malicious actions which she is very aware of.

Again, many feel equally bad for Chrysalis as they do with Cozy and it would still leave the problem of the amount of chances Discord got in comparison to Cozy's zero. Simply put while it may help reduce sympathy, it wouldn't remove it nor would it change the sense of unfairness all that much.

(and again, while he lacks a tragic backstory and enjoyed what he did, once he got a taste of friendship he couldn't resist it where they did, Cozy Glow even after attending the friendship school), and it's RARE she's ever in a punishing mood, I won't argue any other points - clearly you stand by this and I will say, headcanon that Luna set them to share a dream, that, after a few years of comically fighting each other, they become friends with each other and reform, and Twilight notices this by entering their dreams and releases them. I almost want to write a fanfic of this myself but I'm not super great at writing redemptions, they always feel rushed.

Aside from saying Celestia, with her wisdom and ability to sense a change in Discord, determined those three were irredeemble, where Discord she wasn't sure about but considered a chance

But then we run into the problem of why she would consider Discord to be more redeemable then the entire trio when he never acted any better then they did nor did any less horrible things.

and again, while he lacks a tragic backstory and enjoyed what he did, once he got a taste of friendship he couldn't resist it where they did, Cozy Glow even after attending the friendship school

Because Fluttershy refused to give up on him despite knowing who he was and what he was capable of. No one knew who Cozy actually was and they immedietly gave up on her once she was discovered. And then theres the case of DIscord betraying Fluttershy for Tirek and Cozy showing clear signs of embracing friendship slightly in Frenemies. Sure, Chrysalis snapped her out of it, but that to me is a clear sign that with some help it could be cultivated.

headcanon that Luna set them to share a dream, that, after a few years of comically fighting each other, they become friends with each other and reform, and Twilight notices this by entering their dreams and releases them.

And the problem with that is that considering the attitudes of Celestia and Luna in the finale, one would assume that this is meant to be an added punishment, which would make them look even more horrible for doing it. And why would Twilight randomly enter their dreams? If she to do so for the sake of rehabilitating them, why not help them directly?

Or, if you're willing to go by G5 as canon, wait and see because they're most likely releasing them for redemption in the movie, based on the synopsis saying "making new friends out of old enemies", and even if this isn't what it refers to in the movie, G5's writers, which aren't the same as G4's, will be bronies and pegasisters and want to pander to the fans who outraged that they didn't reform them.

And the problem with this is that it still wouldn't make Twilight and co. look any better for not trying to help them. Sure, its possible that they will be released, but if you recall many were sure that Cozy would be reformed in s9 as well.

Of course they'll get bigger backlash BY reforming them

Why would they get a bigger backlash for reforming the trio then what the stoning got?

7453478

you can say

But that's the thing that I think you're missing, and the reason why I've come to hate the term "headcanon". Saying it doesn't make it so. I can wish and wish as hard as I like that the Trio were only in that statue for like a month on the outside before Twilight released them in order to try and get through to them, but that's not what happened. What happened was Discord said that they'd be together forever, everyone cheered, and the show ended.

What you call "headcanon" the rest of the world has for the past fifty years called "fanfiction", the difference is that fanfiction at least cops to the fact that it did not happen. Headcanon requires the person indulging in it to create a delusion in which they pretend something that clearly didn't happen, did. But more importantly it's less than useless in a discussion because whatever my headcanon might be won't necessarily match up against your headcanon which will be at odds with a third person's headcanon. It causes actual discussion to break down as we all either get into arguments over who's fanfiction is better, or retreat into our own private little delusions where our fanfictions are what actually happened.

So no. I will not be indulging in the delusion that my fanfictions are official and I won't countenance you attempting to do the same with your own. There is no such thing as "headcanon". There's just what actually happened, and then there's your fanfiction, which didn't.

Speaking of, I'm now going to get to work on Part 2 of my fanfiction outline.

N.B. There is some small room for things that were not shown to have happened but must logically have happened. For example if we see a character get off of a train then logically they must have gotten onto it at some point, even if that was not shown. Even still this is not headcanon, it's supposition and deduction.

7453549

But then we run into the problem of why she would consider Discord to be more redeemable then the entire trio when he never acted any better then they did nor did any less horrible things.

While she wasn't 100% sure he was redeemable, she also wasn't 100% sure he was irredeemable either (which she might have been able to sense in the other three, as she sensed a change in Discord after his initial redemption) and probably wanted to be sure before leaving him as a statue, awake no less (where the other three are implied to be asleep, and confirmed by Jim Miller but people don't take writers' word as canon).

And the problem with that is that considering the attitudes of Celestia and Luna in the finale, one would assume that this is meant to be an added punishment, which would make them look even more horrible for doing it. And why would Twilight randomly enter their dreams? If she to do so for the sake of rehabilitating them, why not help them directly?

Because it'll be a more comical punishment rather than something like either killing them or leaving them awake as statues. They're sharing a dream world so they're not feeling like they're petrified, and they're just comically fighting each other like we saw in Frenemies. Does that sound so horrible? It might be torment for them but in a more lighthearted way than they certainly deserve.

To the question at the end, quite possibly. And why wouldn't she "help them directly"? Because they had no interest in reforming, each of them had rejected it point blank, and they are pretty dangerous to be out and around, especially since they're also extremely manipulative and could fake it (but then, Celestia would sense if their redemption was genuine), and even if they could take away all Chrysalis and Tirek's magic, Cozy Glow could assassinate them while they slept. Though this can be countered, Discord could be a "safety net" and even revive anyone they killed. But the dream provides a risk-free environment, and Twilight doesn't even have to make her presence known to them, as far as they'd know only they'd be present and if they reformed, she's know they weren't faking. Or she could actively try to reform them in their dreams.

And the problem with this is that it still wouldn't make Twilight and co. look any better for not trying to help them. Sure, its possible that they will be released, but if you recall many were sure that Cozy would be reformed in s9 as well.

What if, again, the dream theory was true, to provide a harmless environment for trying to reform them, but Twilight and her friends died before they could accept friendship?

Why would they get a bigger backlash for reforming the trio then what the stoning got?

Because a LOT of fans were tired of redemptions and think it's overused in this show (despite it being a show about FRIENDSHIP so it's to be expected. Like, I felt Tempest was there to take the "obligatory redemption" while still giving the movie a climactic ending with the Storm King). I definitely don't mind them but a lot of people were tired of them and would prefer, if not death or imprisonment, them running off to threaten Equestria another day.

People especially had issues with Garble, Caballeron, and Ahuizotl's redemptions (and said, if they reform the Legion, I'm done), and also thought Starlight shouldn't have been forgiven even though Twilight promised to give her a second chance. (While I think some villains are irredeemable and, in some cases, deserve worse than what the trio got, I definitely believe in forgiveness and not holding grudges, and that it's wrong to reject someone who is remorseful and wants that second chance) This is likely a major reason why they didn't reform the trio. People even complained about DISCORD (though many warmed up to him later), comparing it to if the Joker reformed on Batman.

Wait and see the reception when the trio reform in G5. I can assure you that while many will express joy and relief that this "innocent" filly and their waifu changeling are now reformed and not trapped in stone sleep forever, many will also outrage, and likely think their redemption arc is hard to swallow (though it would've been more so to throw in reasons for redemption or tragic backstories last minute in the G4 finale, not to mention cheap that we won't see much of their reformed selves since it's at the end of the series, especially Chrysalis, this is why every G1 redemption felt cheap as they never returned after their villain episodes)

7453673
I'm sorry you can't do this even to give you peace here. Perhaps Discord intended them to stay together forever, but Twilight wanted to give them a chance at some point offscreen, and was able to do so in a risk-free way. The writers left many things open and even said the stoning was for symmetry with Discord - and he was also released for redemption. Fanfics that are believable to occur in canon, while definitely not official canon, can be put in headcanon. Like the many interpretations to whether Twilight will outlive her friends, or how long - one has to take place but it's up to us to decide what. Or was, at least, but by G5 she will be dead along with the rest of them. They also said we can decide for ourselves whether Rainbow Dash and Applejack are married, etc. (Even official canon is a story someone made up)

Personally I think Celestia could tell they were irredeemable, and, especially together, too great a threat to just let walk away. Discord was a wild card but had a 50/50 chance of reforming.

Anyway, this was NOT meant to turn into a debate of whether the trio should have been reformed or turned to stone or sent on their way. I was just saying stuff that would have, if not be perfect, at LEAST been a BIT better than how it actually was. Maybe I should FanonDiscontinuity Seasons 8 and 9 just to make all of you happy. (Besides, I have a hunch that G5 will retcon them)

7452599
Previously, on "The Ending of the End"...
Cozy Glow, Tirek, and Chrysalis were all set to engage in their plan to overthrow Grogar, when Grogar revealed that he had been keeping an eye on them the whole time and used their work to take back his Bell, increasing his already immense power many times over. He forced the three to pledge loyalty to him even as he noted that they had become friends, a fact which they vehemently denied. Grogar then sent the Trio out to take out the Pillars of Equestria, which they were successful at, but Stygian was able to warn Twilight and her friends of what was going on. During a subsequent attack on the School of Friendship, Celestia and Luna successfully battled Tirek while the Mane-6 successfully battled Chrysalis, while Cozy Glow was able to hold off the Student-6 and Starlight, Sunburst, and Trixie via mind games. However, Discord was turned to stone by Grogar, who has just arrived on the scene with his prize in tow...

We open where we left off.

Fluttershy: "Discord!"
Rainbow Dash: "Who is this guy?"
Twilight: "Wait...goat...powerful magic...bell...you...you can't be - "
Grogar: "Let's not allow this to go any further."

Grogar uses his magic to grab Tirek, Chrysalis, and Cozy, and then teleports away, taking Discord's statue with him before he can be stopped. Back at the Legion of Doom headquarters, he berates the Trio for being unable to defeat the ponies and, more importantly, for allowing the ponies to even unite in the first place.

Grogar: "Do you not understand the danger?! You must never confront Twilight and her friends together as one. That was the mistake made by King Sombra - and you see how that turned out!"
Chrysalis: "But Starlight Glimmer - "
Grogar: "Will be dealt with when the time is right! Not before!" [jabbing Discord's statue and indicating the captured Pillars in cocoons] "Still, you served your purpose well...your attacks on the Pillars neutralized them and drew out Discord."
Cozy Glow: "But now that Twilight knows about you, she'll start looking for this place, won't she?"
Tirek: "And your plan has a flaw. Surely Twilight and her friends will not separate now."
Grogar: "I will give her no choice!"

Grogar leads the Trio through a secret door and down into the bowels of his lair, where he explains that he has hardly been idle in the long months leading up to this day - instead, he has been creating or recruiting monsters, and the depths of the lair contain a legion of yetis (the Storm King's minions) to attack the yaks, maulwurfs to attack the changelings, rocs to assault the dragons, and the Arimaspi to assault the griffons. He admits to it being unfortunate that he did not have the ability to recruit creatures to deal with the hippogriffs (due to their ability to shift between water and air forms), but he figures that once the other races are dealt with the other four can deal with them.

Chrysalis: "Maulwurfs? Just one was always a threat to my hive...and you have so many!"
Grogar: "Yes...and Twilight will not allow her friends among the other races to suffer. She will divide her forces to try and save every creature - and then, we will strike!"
Chrysalis: "You're using my changelings as a distraction?"
Grogar: "Is there a problem with that?"
Chrysalis: "N...no, mighty Grogar."

Chrysalis is clearly perturbed by the idea of something wiping out the changelings, or else causing them great harm, before she has a chance to restore herself as their true queen. Grogar, meanwhile, begins teleporting his monsters to their intended targets, and then begins to use his palantír to see where to attack first, even as he notes that even should these monsters fail, his most powerful creations should be arriving soon thanks to the efforts of the Trio.

Meanwhile, back in Canterlot, Twilight has gathered together everypony (the Mane-6, Spike, the two sisters, Starlight Glimmer, Trixie, Sunburst, the Student-6) and, along with Celestia and Luna, tells the story of Grogar again, partially for the audience's benefit of reminding them, partially so that we can catch up the rest of the cast. Just as she's about to describe how Grogar was finally defeated years ago, royal guards rush in, revealing first that the yaks are under attack by yetis, then another guard rushes in to say that the dragons are being assaulted by rocs, then the griffons by the Arimaspi, then the changelings by a pack of maulwurfs.

Twilight: "This can't be a coincidence...Grogar must be behind this!"
Luna: "He was known as the Father of Monsters. But to have gathered so many..."
Twilight: "We have to help our friends - and then they can help us against Grogar."
Celestia: "But this is almost certainly a trap. Grogar is surely waiting for us to divide - which is why he didn't attack us outside of the School of Friendship, while you were together with so many of your friends."
Spike: "So...we have to help them one at a time? But how're we supposed to pick which friend to help first?"
Twilight: "We don't. We'll help all of them." [looks at Spike] "And maybe we can have a few surprises of our own waiting for Grogar..."

Following this is a montage with Twilight describing who goes where and why (all via teleportation). Starlight, Trixie, and Sunburst arrive at the Changeling Hive to deal with the maulwurfs. The Young-6 are sent to Griffonstone to help deal with the Arimaspi. Celestia and Luna go to the Dragon Lands to help fend off the rocs, leaving the yetis for Twilight and her friends.

The yetis and rocs are dealt with ranther handily by the most experienced heroes. The maulwurfs prove to be a tough nut to crack, especially when the Trio arrive via teleportation of their own to aid them and fight against the changelings, which culminates in a no-holds barred battle between Starlight and Chrysalis with Chrysalis unloading everything she has on Starlight and standing triumphant over her - only to look past Starlight and see the maulwurfs tearing into the Hive and battering around changelings. Chrysalis hesitates, something which Tirek and Cozy notice.

Meanwhile over in Griffonstone, the Young-6 are mostly bugging the Arimaspi but are unable to do much to keep it down - it's tougher than a maulwurf, fast and strong and probably should have some cool wind powers or something. However the Young-6, particularly Gallus, prove to be incredible at rallying the griffons to their aid. Just as they managed to finally knock down the Maulwurf and pin it under a collapsed rock, Grogar appears and immediately lays into the Young-6 and all the griffons present with no pretenses, speeches, or apparent effort, his first and biggest action to separate the Young-6 from each other as much as possible and make sure to keep them from joining up. He is soon standing apparently triumphant over a dazed Student-6.

Grogar: "Did Princess Twilight seriously think that you could put up the slightest fight against me?"
Sandbar: "...nah. But she did think that she could."
Grogar: "What - "

Before he can get much further, Princess Cadance arrives in a blinding pink flash of light, immedaitely opening up on Grogar and driving him away in a surprise attack, knocking him out of Griffonstone entirely - though he lands unharmed. Before he can teleport back, Cadance raises a shield spell around all of Griffonstone just like she once did around the Crystal Empire, but not before sending forth a prepared letter.

The scroll arrives to Spike, back in Canterlot, who quickly then sends it back out - to Twilight, who reads it, realizes her plan worked, and gathers up her friends, sends the letter back to Spike, and teleports out. This then repeats with Spike sending the letter to Celestia and Luna, and then to Starlight.

But while Celestia and Luna, and Twilight and her friends, appear on-time, Starlight doesn't. But with Grogar fast approaching they have no choice but to work without her. Cadance briefly lowers her shield so Twilight and the Princesses can enter, then restores it - and expands it, seemingly trapping Grogar inside of it, something that Grogar actually seems taken aback by.

Twilight: "We have you surrounded, Grogar!"
Grogar: [The slightest hint of fear, before a brutal winter chill cuts across the edge of Cadance's shield-spell, and a horrifing neighing can be heard in the distance] "No...I have you surrounded!"

Grogar focuses an immense attack against the shield spell, which allows him to punch through it and escape to the other side - and then teleport away. Every creature wonders what Grogar could have meant, until a letter arrives from Spike - the Windigos have returned to Equestria.

I realize even as I type the above that Part 1 would have needed more scenes of Equestria's ponies acting tribalist to each other, as would Part 2. We wouldn't need all that much, just a bit more than we got in the actual episodes. Show, for example, royal guards not getting along based on tribe, or have the Mane-6 when in Canterlot or Ponyville encountering ponies being standoffish.

Also this might end up being a 4-part episode instead of a 3-part. Whatever, it's not like this would be written on the fly, it would go through several drafts. Plus the original "The Return of Tambelon" was in 4 parts.

While the above might not look like much, I'm taking into account how much of the episode would be fight scenes. Also I'm leaving out that they wouldn't be just fight scenes, there'd be banter and stuff during them. Keeping all that in mind, the above could very comfortably fit into a 22 minute episode.

Anyway, part 3 tomorrow.

7453705
Exactly how redeemable or irredeemable Celestia considered the Trio isn't known. It was never stated or implied, and what little we saw showed more callous disregard for Cozy and Tirek. Conversely, Celestia must have thought that Chrysalis was redeemable - letting Chrysalis get away at the end of "To Where and Back Again" doesn't make sense in any other context. The fact that Chrysalis then came back to wreck stuff in "The Ending of the End" means little - after all, it's not like Starlight Glimmer got better on her own, nor did Discord, nor Luna, nor Tirek, nor...anyone. No villain in MLP has self-redeemed.

Does that sound so horrible?

Compared to how Discord was treated? That is, compared to Celestia personally arranging for somepony to attempt his reformation, and then allowing him to get away with nearly destroying Equestria afterwards - four times?

YES.

I don't think you're grasping this, any argument about whatever the Trio deserve goes out the window the moment you compare their treatment to how Discord has been treated. The ponies - and his fanboys - have bent over backwards to accommodate, forgive, excuse, and in all ways tolerate his antics even though Discord has actually been a bigger threat to Equestria since his supposed reformation than he was before it. Equestria was genuinely safer when Discord was an out-and-out villain then now that he's supposedly one of the "good guys".

I'm not even kidding: he nearly destroyed Equestria twice before "Keep Calm and Flutter On" (once in the past and once in "The Return of Harmony"), while since that episode he's nearly destroyed it four times ("Princess Twilight Sparkle" with the Plundervines that he created and which admits he could have stopped any time but chose not to; "Twilight's Kingdom" by allying with Tirek; "The Beginning of the End" by resurrecting Sombra and letting him loose on Equestria; and "The Ending of the End" by orchestrating this entire scenario and being arrogantly, stupidly negligent and utterly monstrous in his handling of the Trio, resulting in them slipping beyond his control, an entirely predictable result of his actions).

Yet Discord suffers zero consequences. Zero. Each time he merely apologizes, helps clean up the mess (sometimes) and then is permitted to continue on his merry way as though nothing happened. No one holds him accountable, no one addresses the fact that since he has friends in high places he can get away with anything.

And yet the Trio - who it's worth remembering were for the most part doing more-or-less exactly what Discord intended for them to do, just without him holding the reins the whole time - are punished in one step short of the most severe ways that the show has to offer. They're turned to stone, forever. Discord? Discord isn't even given an hour of community service or made to repair Canterlot Castle or in any way punished in a way proportionate to his actions. He's punished less than Snips and Snails were for bringing the Ursa Minor to Ponyville, and they at least have the excuse of being idiot kids.

"Oh, he risked his life to free the Mane-5 from the Trio!", I hear you beginning to object. Whoop-de-frickin' do, he aided in cleaning up the immediate problem that he created in the first place, but the larger problem of the fact that he's a consistent threat to everyone around him hasn't been addressed and there is nothing that happened in this episode that would suggest that he's genuinely learned his lesson - he didn't after "Twilight's Kingdom", after all.

Saying that he risked his life to free the Mane-5 and that makes up for his actions, is like saying that if a lifelong, uncontrolled alcoholic plows into you in his car at 90 miles an hour while hammered, he's "made up" for things if he pays for the damage to your own car. No, it doesn't, because him paying for your car doesn't address the actual issue, which is an uncontrolled alcoholic with access to a car.

So no. There is not, and there will never be, a way for the Trio's punishment to be made "okay", not while Discord is zipping around and showing the inherent nepotism and hypocrisy of Equestria's "justice". In Equestria, you can get away with anything if you're friends with the right people.

Cozy Glow was, ultimately, correct. Friendship is Power. She just didn't make the right friends.

Because a LOT of fans were tired of redemption

I don't know a single fan who was tired of redemptions. What I do know a lot of were people who did not care for unearned redemptions, redemptions that felt rushed or cheap. But we were getting the exact opposite impression with the Trio, an actual redemption arc seemed to be in the works that was logically built up and supported.

Compare/contrast Sunset Shimmer. Sunset had no shortage of haters after her seemingly-unearned redemption in Equestria Girls, which was felt to be rushed. However this almost mmediately dropped after Rainbow Rocks took the time to show that while Sunset had genuinely changed her ways, she was not being instantly forgiven by the school or immediately, totally accepted by Twilight's monkey friends. Sunset earned her redemption in Rainbow Rocks and the fandom's opinion of Sunset did a total 180 after the second movie.

Likewise the issue with Starlight wasn't that she was redeemed, it was that her backstory and reason for villainy was felt to be weak, and conversely she was basically instantly accepted by Twilight's horse friends. Her redemption felt unearned and it didn't help that Season 6 pushed Starlight hard.

So, no. People didn't hate redemptions. People hated unearned, undeserved redemptions. The Trio was not heading in that direction. A writer of even average talent would have been able to convincingly reformed them in Season 9 after "Frenemies" and "The Summer Sun Setback" showed that they were, clearly, friends with each other in spite of their protestations to the contrary.

7453778
Do you have this saved anywhere else? And if not, could you remember it if you wanted to post it again or make it into a fanfic? I'm planning on deleting this thread as it went WAY off on a tangent from the initial intent and is fueling my urge to Discontinuity Seasons 8 and 9.

7453778

Twilight: "We have you surrounded, Grogar!"
Grogar: [The slightest hint of fear, before a brutal winter chill cuts across the edge of Cadance's shield-spell, and a horrifing neighing can be heard in the distance] "No...I have you surrounded!"

That'd have been a fun reference. That was a pretty cool line in the original, too.

Plus the original "The Return of Tambelon" was in 4 parts.

Well, if we want to be anal, the old show's episodes were short enough that the four-parters didn't cover all that much more airtime than modern two-parters. The show was just very good at packing a lot of stuff in a little time.

7453795
First, don't delete threads just because they've gone off topic, that's rude.

Second, no, I don't have it saved anywhere, I'm typing it up as I go. But now that I know that you're planning on deleting a thread just because it had the audacity to evolve naturally as a conversation, I think I will just in case.

7453804
Try a heated debate that wasn't my intention to start and is just making me feel worse about being satisfied with it and want to FD Seasons 8 and 9 just to make you and the others happy.

7453800

That was a pretty cool line in the original, too.

Personally when I first heard it I burst out laughing and thought it was kind of ridiculous...but on the other hand if I recall correctly Grogar didn't even use magic to get out of that, he just used brute force and the fact that he's a ram and has, y'know, horns. Kind of styling on the ponies, I think.

Sort off vaguely reminds me of The Clone Wars CGI show, the episode where Palpatine goes to fight Maul and Opress and is clearly just dicking around and having fun and making sure he isn't rusty with a lightsaber, even as the latter two are giving the fight everything they have.

7453804
And I'm even trying to give anyone who was upset with their final fate a way around it, but no one seems interested.

7453811
It's because you don't seem to understand the problem in the first place and have repeatedly shown contempt for those who do. Your original suggestion was literally of a kind with Marie Antoinette hearing that the peasants of France have no bread to eat and her response was "let them eat cake" - a non-solution that ignores the actual fundamental problem.

And you're completely missing my original point. So the issue is that they turned the trio to stone without trying to reform them first or confirm conclusively that they were redeemable.

The changes I'd make to Season 9 finale would be so the rainbow blast did this to them, so it would seem like friendship's automatic effect on them rather than an execution and a conscious decision to do so, more to save Equestria from them than to punish them (compare BOTH Sombra's deaths and G1 Tirek), and, for those that feel sorry for Cozy Glow (while NOT feeling sorry for Chrysalis and Tirek, as I acknowledge some do), specify her true age as mentioned by the writers. And if I went with destroying them instead, it would just prove conclusively that they are irredeemably evil like Sombra and the Windgios, otherwise friendship magic would not do this to them, and still not be for punishment purposes or the ponies' specific intent over something else.

I won't give anyone a hard time for wanting them reformed, contrary to what some of you might believe, that's not who I am, but wait until G5 reforms them and see the reaction from fans that didn't want it.

7453842

so the rainbow blast did this to them

Which would still be bullshit because "Frenemies" shows pretty conclusively that they are capable of being better people, the issue is that Tirek and Chrysalis have primarily experienced friendship by being on the business end of laser beam made out of it. They don't want it for the same reason that someone who was once almost mauled to death by a dog might not be too keen to get a puppy. They have only fleetingly experienced its positive aspects and rejected it out of reflexive fear.

pecify her true age

This is terrible for the reasons outlined. It doesn't solve the problem, it creates entirely new ones, and it badly contradicts what little information we do have a bout the character. It is also transparently done as an excuse to make it "okay" to kill her at the last minute after the decision to kill her had already been made. In other words, the thought process involved is, "I want to kill Cozy Glow, but I can't kill a kid, I got it, what if she isn't a kid?" Except you still started with the desire to kill what was up until this point a kid and are now merely trying to make it palatable, when really what should have happened is "why do I want to kill someone in this show that is supposed to be friendship?". And on that note, it also doesn't address the problem that no attempt to reach out to her was ever made, she was simply written off as irredeemable.

Speaking of.

Chrysalis

See the thing is the one that I feel most sorry for isn't Cozy, it's Chrysalis. Chrysalis is the only villain in MLP who was ever presented as having a motivation beyond personal power, pain, or selfishness. Nightmare Moon and Starlight Glimmer and Stygian and Tempest Shadow were striking out due to personally being hurt, Sombra and Discord and the Storm King were just power-hungry pricks, but Chrysalis?

"As Queen of the Changelings, it us up to me to find food for my subjects!"

Chrysalis said that in a room full of future victims and no changelings, after she had been revealed, when she no longer had any reason to lie. Chrysalis is the only villain who defined herself and her role by her responsibility to others. Further, Chrysalis is never seen to mistreat or talk down to her minions. Literally the harshest thing she ever did to a changeling was comment that the ones who had replaced the Mane-6 looked ridiculous as ponies - hardly a scathing insult (and yes, also attacked Thorax, but in fairness he was in the process of actively betraying her and the Hive). Her plan in "To Where and Back Again" was explicitly intended to provide enough food for her changelings to feed for generations. After losing control of the Hive she is shown to be incredibly lonely to the point of going insane and talking to people who aren't there.

Chrysalis was the villain who had the clearest road to redemption in front of her, would have been the easiest to redeem and the one who it made the most sense to redeem because her every evil action prior to "To Where and Back Again" was with the 100% understandable and good goal of feeding her people, and her actions post-TWABA are the actions of someone who's lost her home, her throne, her people, and even her self-identity and place in the world (food-finder for the changelings) and is lashing out at those around her because she doesn't know what else to do., because no one has tried to show her another way and she's never been or conceived of being anything else and doesn't even know how to try - and no one is trying to show her, instead all she gets is abandoned in the woods to go insane, and then stolen from those woods by an arrogant chaos god and forced to become even worse than she was.

So having Harmony reduce her to ash? Fuck. No. That does not make things "better". It is more tolerable than what "The Ending of the End' actually did because at least it's not straight-up murder at the hands of the one who forced her into this situation to begin with - fuck you Discord - but it's still taking the most complex villain who deserved another shot at redemption at least as much as fucking Starlight Glimmer or Discord, and reducing her to nothing more than a stereotypical wicked witch.

but wait until G5 reforms them

I spent all of Season 8 and 9 convinced that Chrysalis was on her way to redemption. You'll forgive me for not getting my hopes up.

One final thing.

And you're completely missing my original point

According to you, your original point was to provide a "headcanon" that makes things "better". But it doesn't work because you haven't made anything better, for two reasons: one, what you're suggesting just plain isn't that much better then what we actually got, and two, because what you suggested isn't what happened. The past isn't pick-and-choose. When you have access to a time machine, then you can try and implement some kind of change to improve things, but until then? The best you can hope for is to write up some fanfiction that is a bitter pill to swallow, what might have been...but wasn't, and never will have been.

7453874
My original point was saying what I would change about that episode if I could, not a headcanon.

The headcanon suggestion was separate and in the hopes that it would be something people who were upset with their (soon-to-be-not-so) final fate could go by to make them feel better (either that or find a suitable fanfic to put in their headcanon). I was trying to help you think, this doesn't have to be their final fate and they didn't just kill them there, the writers already left a lot up for us to interpret in our own headcanons including how long Twilight will live for or whether Rainbow Dash and Applejack are married, as well as how Applejack's parents died (all we know is, they're dead, but how? Any of us can have a theory, it won't be official canon but it could be a valid headcanon, and it's different from speculation on how JFK was killed for instance as that really happened while MLP is fiction)

7453705

While she wasn't 100% sure he was redeemable, she also wasn't 100% sure he was irredeemable either (which she might have been able to sense in the other three, as she sensed a change in Discord after his initial redemption)

She literally stated that his powers could be used for the benefit of Equestria and even if she assumed that he could be redeemed, she had no reason to come to that conclusion over say, Tirek.

Because it'll be a more comical punishment rather than something like either killing them or leaving them awake as statues.

Because it'll be a more comical punishment rather than something like either killing them or leaving them awake as statues.

But if their sharing a constant dream it would practically be the same as being awake as their still concious. And I don't see whats so comical about making an already overly cruel punishment even worse if we assume that they already hate each other. Simply put its more needless cruelty.

To the question at the end, quite possibly. And why wouldn't she "help them directly"? Because they had no interest in reforming, each of them had rejected it point blank, and they are pretty dangerous to be out and around, especially since they're also extremely manipulative and could fake it (but then, Celestia would sense if their redemption was genuine), and even if they could take away all Chrysalis and Tirek's magic, Cozy Glow could assassinate them while they slept.

Discord literally mocked the ponies for trying to reform him at first and Starlight rejected Twilight's friendship outright alongside Tempest. Sure, they came around eventually but that required help or a special situation. Theres nothing to suggest that a similar treatment for the trio couldn't work. As for the danger, in what way are those three more dangerous then the guy who can warp reality with a snap of his fingers? Or the unicorn who can go toe-to-toe with an alicorn? Both of those have also proven to be extremely manipulative as well with Discord managing to manipulate the trio for a while. And how would Celestia sense genuenity? As far as we know she has no mind reading powers.

What if, again, the dream theory was true, to provide a harmless environment for trying to reform them, but Twilight and her friends died before they could accept friendship?

But thats a headcanon we have no proof of. And based on the way they were turned to stone with Discord's words and everyone cheering afterwards, it seems highly unlikely.

People especially had issues with Garble, Caballeron, and Ahuizotl's redemptions (and said, if they reform the Legion, I'm done), and also thought Starlight shouldn't have been forgiven even though Twilight promised to give her a second chance. People even complained about DISCORD comparing it to if the Joker reformed on Batman.

Because those redemptions came out of nowhere and were rushed as all hell. The trio, meanwhile had Frenemies at the very least. And theres also the fact that those villains were indeed given second chances and redeemed, which makes the trio's stoning look unfair because there was no reason not to at least try to rehabilitate them at that moment. And I feel that more people complained about Discord after he got reformed due to his actions.

Wait and see the reception when the trio reform in G5. I can assure you that while many will express joy and relief that this "innocent" filly and their waifu changeling are now reformed and not trapped in stone sleep forever, many will also outrage, and likely think their redemption arc is hard to swallow

I doupt anything would cause as much outrage as their finale fate did. Also, most people who want to see them reformed don't quite see Cozy as innocent. At the very least there won't be threads like this popping up.

7454073

As for the danger, in what way are those three more dangerous then the guy who can warp reality with a snap of his fingers? Or the unicorn who can go toe-to-toe with an alicorn?

Because for Discord, the Mane 6 had the Elements of Harmony to reign him in. Evidently their friendship magic, while fatal to Sombra and the Windigos, couldn't do anything to Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow themselves, just Grogar's magic in them. (Though I notice it did also take away the power Discord gave Tirek) Not sure why, and a lot of you will probably use that as fuel that they ARE redeemable (where the Elements turned Discord to stone), and you know what, that's fair. And for Starlight, Twilight didn't have much choice.

But thats a headcanon we have no proof of.

It might come true in the G5 movie, that's my theory. If they never appear, such a thought would remain headcanon for any who wanted to go by it. Yes, it would never be official canon, but neither would any theories on how Applejack's parents died - Jim Miller said we decide that for ourselves. Also it's not official that Rainbow Dash and Applejack are married, only implied, once again up to us to decide for ourselves if they are. They give us lots of room for headcanons here and I bet if someone asked the writers if we could headcanon what I said, they'd say, if you want.

And if I came across the wrong way before, I'm not trying to show contempt for your dislike of their fate or make you come around to my point of view, I'm just trying to ease your discomfort with their final fate and give you an alternative you can go by in your headcanon (again, while not official, even MLP canon is something someone made up). Regarding everyone cheering, that could just be because the villains were no longer a threat, rather than they were effectively dead or otherwise suffering (like suppose if there was a serial killer running around in your town and you heard they were either arrested or killed). And perhaps Discord intended them to stay that way forever, but he's Discord, the same one who created the whole mess and "should have been turned to stone instead of them" and has much to learn about friendship, perhaps Celestia and Luna decided to still leave room for them to reform if they had it in them, and if they didn't... their punishment is both torment for them and more comical than true torture. (I know many of you think that's not any better but it is better than what it was like for Discord, plus Cozy Glow would have it better as she was less annoyed by the other two, and in a sense, it would only be torture for them for as long as they were INCAPABLE of accepting friendship, for as long as they were STILL the villains that deserved it)

Was going to post Part 3 of my rewrite, had a really depressing day. Won't be writing it up after all today. Probably tomorrow.

7454388

Because for Discord, the Mane 6 had the Elements of Harmony to reign him in. Evidently their friendship magic, while fatal to Sombra and the Windigos, couldn't do anything to Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow themselves, just Grogar's magic in them

Twilight and co. still have the elements inside of them and it did leave the trio helpless and in a situation where they couldn't win even without friendship. I don't see how with everything so stacked against them, they couldn't be reigned in.

And for Starlight, Twilight didn't have much choice.

So Starlight getting away with everything because Twilight was forced to reform her sounds fair in comparison to the trio? If anything, that should have taught Twilight to at least try to reform them as well.

And perhaps Discord intended them to stay that way forever, but he's Discord, the same one who created the whole mess and "should have been turned to stone instead of them" and has much to learn about friendship,

Yet, everyone else was content to listen to, and immedietly forgive him.

perhaps Celestia and Luna decided to still leave room for them to reform if they had it in them, and if they didn't... their punishment is both torment for them and more comical than true torture

Putting them in a state of torment like that is still torture, no matter how "comical" it may be.

I know many of you think that's not any better but it is better than what it was like for Discord, plus Cozy Glow would have it better as she was less annoyed by the other two, and in a sense, it would only be torture for them for as long as they were INCAPABLE of accepting friendship, for as long as they were STILL the villains that deserved it

The problem with this is that no villain ever reformed without help. Discord didn't change without Fluttershy heling her and that goes for Starlight as well. With this interpretation, they effectively put them in a state where they keep feeding off of each others negativity and are effectively torturing them by not allowing them to take a break from each other. That is not somethign I would find comical and most certainly something that they don't deserve because if they did, then Starlight should be in Tartarus and Discord stoned right alongside them.

7453778
Forgot to comment before, but this is really good. Far better then the finale.

7455493

Twilight and co. still have the elements inside of them and it did leave the trio helpless and in a situation where they couldn't win even without friendship. I don't see how with everything so stacked against them, they couldn't be reigned in.

Tirek could still steal magic, twice the Mane 6 were unable to remove that power from him with the same type of magic that destroyed Sombra and the Windigos.

So Starlight getting away with everything because Twilight was forced to reform her sounds fair in comparison to the trio? If anything, that should have taught Twilight to at least try to reform them as well.

I meant she didn't have much choice than to do so now, where Starlight could still blast her to dust if she wanted, there was no time to set up a risk-free environment for it and the only thing she could do was try to convince her to stop right then and there, which, thankfully, was an option because of a tragic backstory that, as far as we know (and it's up to us to decide, they literally left us LOTS of room for headcanon), the trio lacked. Again, as Discord also lacked it, there wasn't any guarantee he would reform, but he was also less evil than a lot of the other villains, more along the lines of mischievous. Celestia couldn't be sure which he was but wanted to be sure of it before leaving him a sentient statue.

Yet, everyone else was content to listen to, and immedietly forgive him.

Discord's actually the only reformed villain they couldn't immediately forgive. Only Celestia and Fluttershy wanted to give him a chance, and even after he reformed the first time, the other five didn't treat him as a friend, and Twilight didn't even bother to find out where he lived, making her sound hypocritical in saying "I thought our friendship meant something to him!" I'm not sure what happened between A Matter of Principals (in which they were furious at him for almost getting them killed) and The Beginning of the End (by which time they've forgiven him for that), but for the Grogar thing, despite the fact that it was well-intentioned, however severely misguided, none of them were able to forgive him until he risked his life to try to make up for it, even after he walked all the way from Grogar's lair to Canterlot on foot which was punishment enough.

Putting them in a state of torment like that is still torture, no matter how "comical" it may be.

I know I do this sometimes but sounds like you're taking this a little too seriously. Did you feel this sorry for them in Frenemies during Better Way To Be Bad? What we'd be getting here is a lot of lighthearted stuff like that and they're unable to feel physical pain in a dream, where I'm guessing they did physically hurt each other in Frenemies. Plus it will only be torture for as long as they're unreformed. If you believe in God, he is not so merciful - even if you're sorry for what you did, the slightest offense can give you eternal damnation to hell for an eternity of eternal torment forever. (In MLP universe of course I'm sure it'll be different with Starlight, Sunset, and Discord, and a few other shows like Star Wars have depicted such forgiveness)

The problem with this is that no villain ever reformed without help.

They almost reformed through helping each other (though I think that scene wasn't meant to be taken seriously, just a tease for the many fans who didn't want them reformed and they could probably imagine the collective sigh of relief when Chrysalis says "NOOOOO!" and the other two snap out of it). Besides, they can just try ignoring each other at first, but then eventually realize they miss talking to each other, then decide to become friends. Like a, "we're all we have" thing leading to them getting used to and appreciating each other and, feeling they have nothing to lose by doing so (as they rejected it point blank before), finally accepting each other's friendship. I'm sure I've heard of similar stuff happening before.

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're determined to hate Celestia, Luna, and, by extension, Twilight for this and that you don't WANT to believe it can be better both on their part and for the villains. The writers deliberately left a LOT of room for headcanon. The official word too (though NO ONE takes the writers' word as canon) is that they're in "suspended animation", meaning dreamless sleep, which is kinda like death/being erased, but if later someone decides they can try to reform them in a risk-free way, they can release them (which their stone sleep would be like an instant for them) and try to do so, remembering the Discord thing, or else discuss this at friendship meetings and determine why it would or wouldn't be a good idea. Whatever Celestia and Discord said, if they didn't want to leave room for their release and redemption in fanfics and headcanons, they'd have destroyed them up front. From the way audiences reacted there's really no difference (Rockhoof's situation was considered as suicide), they might as well have disintegrated them all. (Their reasoning was "symmetry with Discord" and he reformed)

And again, what I stand by is, at least in my headcanon, Celestia could TELL they were irredeemable with her wisdom and however she sensed Discord's redemption (remember she expressed concern for Sunset despite having not seen her redemption). Yes they don't go into much detail on this - but they don't go into detail on a LOT of stuff, like a lot of the exact classes or procedures of the School of Friendship, etc., how the Mane 6 make money, how long Twilight will live for, or how Applejack's parents died (or wherever they are if they didn't), and especially Pinkie's reality-bending antics, being a cartoon and all, a lot of left up to interpretation or "not clearly specified but probably something in this universe that we won't ever know 100% but they will and that's what counts, though only because we can't really clearly explain it" or something, that's at least what I tell myself regarding the school to keep going by Seasons 8 and 9 as canon and thus not erase Silverstream.

7455779

Again, as Discord also lacked it, there wasn't any guarantee he would reform, but he was also less evil than a lot of the other villains, more along the lines of mischievous.

Discord really isn't that much less evil than the other villains though. Return of Harmony portrayed him as a sadist who delights in the mental torture of others. As people have said in this thread, he didn't have to corrupt the Mane Six the way he did, he could easily have just used magic to change them, but he deliberately used manipulation to toy with their minds and break them and make them turn against their Elements on their own. He broke Twilight's faith in Friendship and then cheered when he saw it worked. Heck, the first time we're ever introduced to him is with a stained glass window of him dangling ponies over a pit of fire while horrified screams play in the background, implying the stuff we were shown in "Return of Harmony" wasn't even his worst. The nicest thing that can be said about pre-reform Discord is that as far as we know, he's not purposely murderous, but honestly the stuff he might do can be genuinely viewed as worse than death. Tirek, Cozy and Chrysalis over the course of Season 9 all honestly portray more sympathetic and redeeming qualities than he did before reform.

I'm saying this all as a huge Discord fan who loves his reformed self for the most part, at least when I pretend Season 9 isn't a thing. I like his character a lot, but I'm kind of annoyed at the amount of whitewashing people do with him.

7455811
That is true, if nothing else that was pretty horrible. Celestia must have determined there was a possibility with him, that introducing friendship to him might be able to reform him, but being Discord she couldn't be 100% sure.

So, at the end of the day, I might not be able to persuade you to feel better. You want to feel horrible thinking Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow are either dead or suffering forever, and hate Celestia and Luna for doing that to them, and Twilight for not trying to reform them, go right ahead. I have my thoughts and you won't change my mind either.

Let's just politely agree to disagree.

7456517
I highly doubt anybody here wants to hate any of those characters or wants to feel horrible thinking about what happened in the show. You just seem to think that headcanoning things fixes the problems with the actual show, but it doesn't. I headcanon that Season 9 doesn't even exist canonically, my headcanon ends with Best Gift Ever. Despite my best efforts and constant wishing though, Season 9 continues to exist. Because just pretending something else happened or making up stuff that isn't actually in the show doesn't change what happened on-screen.

Don't get me wrong, headcanon is fun, and for some it can certainly provide a sense of comfort. I enjoy a good headcanon, but at the end of the day it's fanfiction and just like fanfiction it doesn't do anything to change the show itself, and the issues people have with the show are going to keep existing no matter how much people try to think them away.

7456601
That is official canon but headcanons can still be done in fiction as long as it can fit in with what you do acknowledge as canon. (Because even canon is something someone made up. May not be OFFICIAL canon but we always have the freedom to FanonDiscontinuity something we don't like as long as something later doesn't mention it, and you want to FD Season 9? Go right ahead! )

I have a HUGE list of stuff I FanonDiscontinuity, including a few MLP episodes that aren't referenced later. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Dead Men Tell No Tales. Batman & Robin. Seasons 7 and above of 24 (though some, including Seasons 7 and 8 writers, would do this with Season 6 instead). Season 5 of Teen Titans, Season 2 of Digimon (which has some continuity issues of its own). The only thing that makes it hard for me to FanonDiscontinuity any of them is if, like Season 2 of Digimon, they have some redeeming value, but if I decide the bad outweighs the good... I now consider VenomMyotismon's death to be the true end of Myotismon (as spectacular as his rainbowfied Season 2 death was), and don't get me started on Tri! (I would SOMETIMES consider Seasons 8 and 9 of MLP due to a major issue I have with the school but the good outweighed it every time)

The stuff you FD will exist (though Season 9 might not always). But despite being official canon you can treat it like your least favorite fanfics.

As for more specific stuff that WOULD happen in your headcanon... yeah, I understand it can be a bit harder, I was ironically trying to the opposite scenario here by GIVING a final fate to Chrysalis when I thought she'd never get one (please don't judge), and it was hard to go by as I knew it wasn't official canon, despite trying to make it seem more "real" through writing fanfics of it. I even found myself trying to animate a Chrysalis disintegration or her being struck by lightning. But then the writers themselves gave us plenty of ambiguous situations that are dependent on our headcanons - such as how (or if, as many don't take their word as canon) Applejack's parents died, how long Twilight lives for, and whether Rainbow Dash and Applejack or Fluttershy and Discord are married. There are a few others I can go by easily now (like in Teen Titans, I think Slade died when Trigon's power was undone, as it was by Trigon's power he was resurrected from his first death)

Fix-it fanfics are a thing. Probably harder to go by than official canon of course as they're not seen on the screen, but still.

Anyway, my above comment wasn't directed at you so I wasn't accusing you of wanting to be miserable.

7455779

Tirek could still steal magic, twice the Mane 6 were unable to remove that power from him with the same type of magic that destroyed Sombra and the Windigos.

And? One sufficiently powerful can easily resist his magic stealing as Chrysalis proved in Frenemies and it’s not like they wouldn’t keep him under a close watch. In addition, the friendship rainbow beam still left him powerless and helpless so it’s not like it wouldn’t work with him. He’d still be less dangerous then Discord, who doesn’t need to steal power to be powerful.

I meant she didn't have much choice than to do so now, where Starlight could still blast her to dust if she wanted, there was no time to set up a risk-free environment for it and the only thing she could do was try to convince her to stop right then and there, which, thankfully, was an option because of a tragic backstory that, as far as we know, the trio lacked.

So Twilight was literally forced to reform Starlight. Does that mean that rehabilitation just comes down to luck? Hardly seems fair. Also, on the topic of safe environments, Cozy’s a filly without any powers which alone provides a safe environment for reforming her and Tirek was literally in a cage unable to get out. Also, its not like Twilight even bothered to try and look into the trio’s past.

Again, as Discord also lacked it, there wasn't any guarantee he would reform, but he was also less evil than a lot of the other villains, more along the lines of mischievous. Celestia couldn't be sure which he was but wanted to be sure of it before leaving him a sentient statue.

Discord was no less evil then the trio. His actions were just as horrible and one could argue that doing those things for personal amusement far worse than actually having a goal to it. I find it hypocritical of Celestia to not even think to give the trio a second chance.

Discord's actually the only reformed villain they couldn't immediately forgive. Only Celestia and Fluttershy wanted to give him a chance, and even after he reformed the first time, the other five didn't treat him as a friend, and Twilight didn't even bother to find out where he lived, making her sound hypocritical in saying "I thought our friendship meant something to him!" I'm not sure what happened between A Matter of Principals (in which they were furious at him for almost getting them killed) and The Beginning of the End (by which time they've forgiven him for that),

Really? They were quick to forgive him with Tirek, Tree Hugger and the trio. And then theres the fact that he was at least let out for rehabilitation and had Fluttershy, who refused to give up on him which is something the trio never got.

but for the Grogar thing, despite the fact that it was well-intentioned, however severely misguided, none of them were able to forgive him until he risked his life to try to make up for it, even after he walked all the way from Grogar's lair to Canterlot on foot which was punishment enough.

Well-intentioned? He threatened the trio with Sombra’s death, gave them false-promises of victory and even used physical force to intimidate them all with the intent to ruin Twilight’s coronation by essentially setting them up for failure. As for risking his life, he essentially did what he had to do for self-preservation and I’m not sure that having to run all the way from one place to another is enough of a punishment for what he caused, especially when the trio got turned to stone by his own suggestion.

Did you feel this sorry for them in Frenemies during Better Way To Be Bad?

Yes, I did because we still had the guy trapped in a cage for a thousand years, the child put next to him and the obviously mentally ill changeling.

What we'd be getting here is a lot of lighthearted stuff like that and they're unable to feel physical pain in a dream, where I'm guessing they did physically hurt each other in Frenemies. Plus it will only be torture for as long as they're unreformed. If you believe in God, he is not so merciful - even if you're sorry for what you did, the slightest offense can give you eternal damnation to hell for an eternity of eternal torment forever.

So by lighthearted you mean mental torture where they can’t move, feel or just take a break from each other? And how are they supposed to reform without any help? Starlight, Tempest and Discord never reformed on their own, after all. Putting them together like that would make them even worse. Also, I’m not sure how religion comes into this.

They almost reformed through helping each other (though I think that scene wasn't meant to be taken seriously, just a tease for the many fans who didn't want them reformed and they could probably imagine the collective sigh of relief when Chrysalis says "NOOOOO!" and the other two snap out of it).

The fact that they got that far on their own shows that they have much more potential to reform than any other villain before them, reformed or otherwise. Moreover, you probably should not be talking for the fan base as only one person.

Besides, they can just try ignoring each other at first, but then eventually realize they miss talking to each other, then decide to become friends. Like a, "we're all we have" thing leading to them getting used to and appreciating each other and, feeling they have nothing to lose by doing so, finally accepting each other's friendship.

While being stuck in a state of torture imposed by Luna and the friendship gang? I don’t think so. They need proper, Discord and Starlight style help, not some overblown, cruel and unfair punishment.

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're determined to hate Celestia, Luna, and, by extension, Twilight for this and that you don't WANT to believe it can be better both on their part and for the villains. The writers deliberately left a LOT of room for headcanon

I’m not determined to hate them, the finale just left little to like about them. And still, we have what Discord said, the fact that we saw nothing of them in the finale and the fact that everyone was happy to leave them like that. Everything points to the heroes not wanting to reform them and frankly, that’s pretty hypocritical of them.

And again, what I stand by is, at least in my headcanon, Celestia could TELL they were irredeemable with her wisdom and however she sensed Discord's redemption (remember she expressed concern for Sunset despite having not seen her redemption

And again, Celestia has no way of telling if someones redeemable or not without talking to them. The fact that Discord and Starlight got a second chance shows just how unfairly the trio were treated in comparison. Also, Sunset was Celestia’s student so of course she’d express concern.