Correcting the Critics #1: "Why Couldn't MLP been more epic?" · 6:25am Jan 29th, 2023
I've chosen to begin a new blog series where I look at the claims of trolls, haters, and ignorant people and pick apart their claims. I can't promise how regular or frequent this series will be. But I wanted to make a proper series with a straight-to-the-point name. In this series, I will also avoid actually posting any links or saying names. I don't want to give the people or groups any credibility, nor do I want my followers to mob anyone. If you know who I'm talking about and where to look, that's your business. But to those people who are blissfully ignorant of who I'm talking about, I don't want to be responsible for sending a hate mob anywhere.
This first choice comes from the group formerly known as We Hate MLP. I refuse to call them by their current group name because it's a lie, and I'm opposed to lying. So I will not lie about what the group actually does. The forum post is titled "Why Couldn't MLP been more epic?".
To answer that question is simple. It's not the genre for it. It can include "epic", once in a while, but that's part of the nature of being episodic. But Lauren Faust caught lightning in a bottle. There, I just debunked the forum topic without even addressing the comments yet. I suppose that makes this your TL:DR.
Before I even post the quote. I want to point out one of the most cliche, generic, and overused tropes in media:
The mentor figure fights the villain. The mentor is much stronger than the villain. Before making the final blow, the mentor offers the villain one last chance. The villain uses this chance to attack while the mentor's guard is down (perhaps revealing that they were hiding their true strength to lull the mentor into a false sense of security). The student sees their mentor fall to the villain. The student is now driven to defeat the villain to avenge their fallen mentor.
There's a reason why I wanted to point out that trope now instead of later. Keep that trope in mind.
I mean, either keep it slice of life or, if you're going to go all out, take a page from Shounen anime (DBZ, Demon Slayer, Attack on Titan for you normies), and go right the fuck all out.
Claiming it has to be either fully epic or fully slice of life is a False Dichotomy. A False Dichotomy, also known as the Black and White Fallacy, is when you present two options as the only possible options. Not only does this group know that there are several other genres to choose from, "epic" and "slice-of-life" are not even mutually exclusive (epic isn't even a genre). And a story can in fact have multiple genres at once. The Princess Bride is an example of a story that is a melting pot of genres. The movie even includes a slice-of-life genre than wasn't in the book.
As for Shounen anime, it seems convenient that the examples used are anime that rely on a theme that's overused at this point. Because there are plenty of Shounen anime that don't fit the theme they're trying to push.
Besides, MLP is not an anime. Western Cartoons tend to keep to an episodic style, while anime tends to be serialized. There are some exceptions, but the reason for this is because anime tends to originate from manga as the source material, while Western cartoons tend not to. Again, there are some exceptions. But even with Western cartoons based on comics, it's likely not a direct recreation of the comics, but just use the comics as reference material. Anime takes strong influence from the comics (yes, I just called manga "comics") which is what results in the more serialized nature of anime.
So, do you remember that trope I mentioned? Keep that in mind before reading what's next. In fact, before you continue, think of how many anime, cartoons, comics, TV shows, etc. that has that trope.
If you're ready, you can continue.
Like this.
"As Chrysalis shot out a beam of green energy rocketing towards Celestia a golden shield sprung up and the attack ricocheted. Chrysalis cried out as it struck her and she stumbled back. "Child." Celestia's voice did not waver. She strode forward, her eyes aglow. "Child. I was there when your foremothers knew Flutter Valley and I stood by Queen Rosedust against the darkness eternal and you would challenge me? I give you one chance. Apologize, call off your army and I will allow you to live."
Chrysalis laughed, a cold and bitter sound. "Out of my way, old mare!"
The second blast sent Celestia against the wall. Twilight galloped, scooped her up. Celestia weakly groaned. "My faithful student...I am so sorry...I did not...believe you...that witch enchanted my mind..."
Twilight wiped away her tears. "Don't talk. Rest."
That's when the sun went down, plunging the world into darkness. And through that darkness strode Nightmare Moon. "You dare. You dare, you upstart queen? To strike MY sister, to invade MY kingdom?"
Chrysalis answered by charging her. Nightmare Moon batted aside her horn. "Element Bearers!" The night princess shouted. "What are you waiting for!"
Sound familiar, right?
The main problem with a trope like this is that it takes away focus from the main characters. I personally like the idea that maybe Celestia lost in the show because she was holding back. And she holds back because she's too powerful. I got this from a fanfic, but it applies. Perhaps Celestia could've defeated Chrysalis. But the amount of power she'd have to use would likely level Canterlot. She lost not because Chrsyalis was stronger, but because if she doesn't hold back, she could destroy the ponies she's trying to protect.
Using that example, the demeanor of Celestia in that alternate scenario sounds like a version of Celestia that doesn't care whether she hurts her ponies or not, as long as it results in the greater good. And when has good ever truly come from "The ends justify the means"? But whether Celestia is too strong to go all out, or not strong enough to defeat Chrysalis, the point is that it takes the focus away from the main characters.
Think of it like this (assuming you've seen Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero). Imagine if during the final battle, rather than letting Gohan and Piccolo be in the forefront as they did, Cell Max's defeat came from Goku returning to Earth and becoming the hero. I'd even argue that that's what ruined Resurrection F. It also ruins Super in general, and it even ruined the Buu Saga of Z. The defeat of Cell was supposed to be the passing down of the torch to the next generation. But in the Buu Saga, halfway through, Goku took the lead again rather than let Gohan be the hero. And then in Super, they did it again by making Gohan out of practice and taking away his Ultimate form.
My point is that it's a trope that's so generic, I'm almost certain that everyone has seen that trope done at least more than once (assuming they weren't raised extremely sheltered that is). For example, both Batman and Ironman fit into that trope in some way.
It really should’ve stayed slice of life all around. The characters were at their best when they were in situations where they were relatable.
I'd argue that it's impossible for a fantasy setting to hold the SoL genre. It literally defeats the purpose of the Fantasy setting. There can be episodes that are Slice-of-Life, but what's the point of a series that has magical candy-colored talking ponies, magic, and other mythological creatures if you're not going to take advantage of it? Or do you actually believe a fantasy setting is relatable? Do you have Griffon and Harry Potter as roommates or something?
The great thing about MLP being episodic is that different episodes can themselves have different genres. And in a fantasy setting, referring to something as "relatable" is relatively superficial. I do agree that certain character TRAITS should be relatable. But there's no point of making the series SoL and Fantasy.
It was the entire reason the first generation of Bronies got as hooked as they did, really.
By "first generation of Bronies", are you referring to when the show started, or are you referring to all the way back in G1? Because G1 was hardly SoL, and G4 told a good story. The pilot of G4 is what got many Bronies hooked at the start, and that's not a SoL episode. The reason G4 was so good was because it was good for all ages, good for all genders, and a good source for escapism, which I would argue is the antithesis of Slice-of-Life.
Even in the IDW comic series, where the more epic storylines are more derided than loved, the slice of life storylines have received the warmest reception from readers.
Citation needed. Who says that the epic storylines in the IDW comics are "derided"?
In all fairness though, I do half agree. The Slice-of-Life moments in the comics are good. My favorite is Twilight talking about what it was like when she first started going to Celestia's school. Not only does it include how she started taking care of Spike (the picture labeled as her first friend), it also shows that Trixie had gone to the same school and was in the same classes. So I like to believe that Trixie's magical capabilities that she boasts about are legit, it's just that what she boasts about in her magic shows are just that, for show.
I really do agree. As a writer myself, I know that thematic consistency is best.
He must not be a good writer if he can't recognize that MLP was thematically consistent.
Hasbro wouldn't have allowed it. I believe Lauren Faust originally intended the Nightmare Moon story to be ongoing throughout season one.
It's technically true that Hasbro wouldn't have allowed it. Because it's not thematically consistent to suddenly use an overused cliche that's not fitting with the genre. That and it wouldn't be fitting for the target demographic.
As for Lauren Faust's intent, citation please. What reason do you have to assume Faust's intent was to make the Nightmare Moon story arc last through the entirety of Season 1? It doesn't make any sense, since that was just the Pilot episode. If Faust wanted to make it the entire Season, she wouldn't have made it the Pilot episode. And making a Season long arc like that, with the context of The Eternal Night, would contradict the episodic nature of MLP. The Eternal Night would've constantly been at the forefront. Any Season-long arcs that the show did keep the arc in the background, allowing for the episodic nature of the show to continue as such.
As fantasy, it is banal. As slice-of-life, it has singular charm.
If you want SoL, watch My Little Pony Tales.
And what does "singular charm" mean?
That's what I'm saying! I had a similar thought. The show should have stuck with either epic fantasy or slice of life.
Why should it be either if it was presented as neither? It wasn't "Epic Fantasy", nor was it "Slice-of-Life". However, the episodic nature allowed for it to have elements of both. There's no reason to go all in on either.
Personally, I'd say stick with a slice of life since that was the show's whole identity and where its charm came from.
That was not the show's whole identity.
It's like the show couldn't decide what to be.
But it did decide. The show was always Fantasy.
It really needed to stay on the slice of life side of things. The characters were what made MLP work, and trying to force them into big adventures broke that badly.
It's almost as if the show wasn't Slice-of-Life. But that's ridiculous.
The most obvious example is Fluttershy because while she was an excellent character who enabled a number of fantastic slice of life episodes, she really had no place in combat and mostly acted as an anchor on the group in adventures, or was left out entirely.
It's almost as if the show wasn't Action Adventure. But that's ridiculous.
The epic fantasy elements were also a major contributor to Twilight's transformation into a show-devouring mary sue, especially after her refit made her unambiguously more powerful than the rest of the cast (before that Rainbow's flight skills at least forced McCarthy to find ways to mitigate her).
It's almost as if- You know what, that's getting old. It wasn't Slice-of-Life, it wasn't Action Adventure, and it wasn't Epic Fantasy. As for a "show-devouring Mary Sue, that's not true. Twilight became an Alicorn because she was in fact the main character. And Faust's goal from the very beginning was to make Twilight an Alicorn Princess.
Incidentally, what happened to MLP did make me realize a hilariously overpowered combat character can actually be a major boon to a slice of life show by neutralizing most mortal danger and making combat-focused episodes impossible.
Unless it's intended to be something like One Punch Man, making a character OP isn't a good thing. In fact, having a character going and neutralizing threats, that alone would take away the Slice-of-Life aspect. Unless they were doing it off-screen and left as a background character.
Buuuut...
In MLP's case, this could have been achieved by dropping Princess Luna into the core cast at the end of the pilot, letting the show explore her character, guilt, and recovery in depth while accepting that she makes the various attacks impossible because she could punt things like Hydras or Diamond Dogs to the moon with a thought.
They want to make that OP character part of the main cast, and functionally making her (Luna) the main character instead of Twilight. And as I pointed out, every time Luna goes to stop any threats will quickly chip away at the SoL genre.
True. MLP was never built up as an epic fantasy series considering most of the characters have no place in fights. The only way for an epic fantasy MLP series to work in my mind would be to remake the series from the ground up. Not saying that's the best idea, but just a thought.
At least someone gets it.
That or a spinoff. Rainbow Dash and Princess Luna both could have been used as the basis for a more action-oriented spinoff, but even then I don't think it would have been a good idea. Faust's worldbuilding wasn't really set up to enable sustained adventure and combat, and it would have been a nightmare to kludge in a more robust magic system to make conflict consistent and engaging.
Faust actually did intend to make a spinoff. But it goes in a completely different direction. It would be focused on the CMCs and their misadventures trying to get their cutie marks. And considering what the CMCs get into, that could be considered Action Adventure. Or at least Adventure with action-packed traits.
Hence why Nightmare Moon (which I headcanon as Luna's "I'm so angry I can't contain my magic" form) vs. Chrysalis would be so epic. Oh well...
Your headcanon doesn't matter in the slightest. Especially since it contradicts what Faust has already established. Nightmare Moon is the result of Luna's negative emotions possessing her.
Yeah, that's why I think remaking the series would be the best option. The epic adventures in the main show may work for a spectacle, but they hurt the show in the long run.
You were the one who got it before! I thought you were one of the smart ones.
At least we still have fanfics, right? At least that's something.
rubydawn121 has redeemed himself. That's exactly what fanfics are for. To do what the canon will not or cannot do.
The group formerly known as We Hate MLP aren't exactly known for people who can analyze deeply. But ruby at least is redeemable. At least for now.
I understand that people want MLP to kind of be like anime, but slice of life isn’t about that. Also, I never heard about luna being possessed.
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That's how Lauren Faust described Nightmare Moon. Basically, Luna wasn't in control despite Nightmare Moon just being the result of her emotions. There was no external force that possessed her. But because they were her emotions, she technically possessed herself. I suppose it's comparable to autism (which I have experience with). When the stress becomes too much, you can tend to become unresponsive and trapped inside your own head. On the inside, you can be screaming in an attempt to be heard. But none of that internal screaming makes it to the outside. In Luna's case, she didn't become unresponsive but rather was taken over by emotions. But on the inside, it's likely the same. Luna was likely trapped inside her own head screaming to be heard. But none of that internal screaming makes it out.
So there was no external force possessing her like what you would normally expect when you think about possession. But in the case of Nightmare Moon, the negative emotions were still felt by Luna. Nightmare Moon's anger was Luna's anger. But Luna was trapped in the sense that she had no control over herself or her emotions. Someone who isn't autistic probably can't truly even begin to understand what Luna experienced. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's likely not a bad one either.
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So she basically possessed herself. Would you say it’s similar to how sunset was possessed? Because I’m debating if it is or isn’t in my head.
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First of all, it's not quite the same as "possessing herself". But I suppose that's the simplest description. Her emotions corrupted her. And since it was her own emotions, I suppose you can say that.
As for Sunset, I wouldn't say it's the same. Yes, her emotions caused her corruption. However, the corrupting force was an external source of magic. Basically, the external magic fed off of Sunset's emotions to corrupt her, while with Luna, it wasn't an external source of magic.
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Oh ok
I personally feel FiM was at its strongest when it succesfully balanced the SoL and Fantasy elements. There were several moments in later years where the show, in my opinion, got excessively bogged down in lore at the expense of telling an interesting story.
I feel as though G5 is doing a good job of striking a good balance as well, with bits and pieces of lore sprinkled into the story as the show goes along.