What makes a villian in your eyes? · 4:05am May 16th, 2015
Posting this to let folk have some input on the upcoming 'Scaleless' chapters. It seems my depiction of the Chosen Undead as a woman of somewhat questionable morals isn't sitting well with folk, and I'd like to know if that's really proving to be as much of a sore point as I fear it might.
First off to explain my reasons behind the Chosen Undead being a bit of a jerk for now, it's partly deliberate. I wanted there to be some parallels between her and Seath, showing the two aren't as different as they might want to think. It's also because I honestly believe if you had to go through the hell that the Chosen Undead has to endure over the course of Dark Souls you wouldn't be feeling too full of kindness or love either. Seriously, you're a zombified being who can't stay dead, and who's only hope for retaining whatever remains of your sanity is to keep killing your way through hordes of enemies and stealing their souls for yourself . Every being from the gods to the bugs want you killed, your few allies have a nasty habit of wandering off and going hollow after they feel like you no longer have any need for them, and your ultimate goal turns out to basically be a Hobbes choice. There is literally no chance for you to act like a hero in the game, just a survivor who's got more motivation to keep going than everyone else. Nothing you do ends up benefiting anyone except yourself and Frampt/Kaathe. That doesn't really make a good setting for a paragon of virtue.
Now with that said, I DO intend for the Chosen Undead to go through a character arc soon here. We'll see she's a nicer soul than she may seem right now, and has just become alienated by her experiences. The problem is it's going to entail her doing a few more rather assholeish things first. Once she finally catches up to Seath and meets the ponies (which will be somewhere around the end of the first third of this series, yes I plan for this to be quite a long venture) she'll make a few costly mistakes, then have to make up for them just like Seath is trying to do. What I wish to ask of everyone is how much can she screw up without becoming a total lost cause for you?
Again I'm both amused and weirded out that more people are feeling incensed by her actions than Seath's despite the latter clearly being the more psychotic of the two. I don't want everyone to see her as too much of a villain that nothing I do later will make her more likeable.
What do you all think? Where does the line exist between one being an anti-hero and a complete monster?
I would also like to point out that the action of the chosen undead are not the kindest. She killed Qeulag, who is just trying to protect her sister, steals the clothing of the sister of Ceaseless discharge, who's only relief from the endless agony is those clothes, kill pinwheel, who only wants to learn how to bring his family out the agony they are in, kills a butt load of demons who are only trying to protects their mother, then slaughters their mother, kills sif who only wants to protect his masters grave from desecration, all just to do something that has no real meaning or difference in the world. So ya, I would say the chosen undead is cruel at LEAST.
3072648 Indeed, which is why I'm trying to give her the mindset of one who could feasibly do all of that, regardless of whether they had a choice or not in the matter. My question is, does that put her beyond being able to become a better person, or can one accept that a character can be both cruel and kind?
Well, if we look at her intentions, we see that she is one who wants the right thing... maybe. would you chosen undead chose to sacrifice herself or let the fire fade? if the former, than she would be doing everything she can for the greater good, but if the latter, than she is fighting for power, to surpass the gods to rule the world in their place. Eater way maybe, but the dark ending is going to have a much harder time becoming a better person.
Well, after reading the post and thinking about it for a bit, I gathered that what you're really asking is "what makes an unlikable villain", the sort you don't want to see redeemed or succeed on any level. I can't claim too much knowledge of the Dark Souls series, but from what I've gathered it's a setting that does not allow for good things to happen, where hope is poison and the only real kindness you can give others is keeping your weapons sharp. It makes sense for the protagonist to behave they do, because the alternative is oblivion. That such choices, when taken out of context, would be enough go label them a villain of the darkest sort is an unfortunate but necessary reality.
In my opinion, there are three major things that can make a villain likable: remorse, respect and amusement. The first two are kind of similar in some respects, though I hope that I can explain why I've got them both here.
Remorse can be critical to whether a villain can be viewed in a sympathetic light or outright hated. A villain who is aware that the things they're doing are wrong but does them anyway must either be possessed of terrible determination or a truly sadistic core. If the villain experiences remorse for their action, it implies that they would have done differently if presented with the choice to do so or whether they have the faith that a better outcome was/ is possible. I personally think this is the way to go here, as the setting of Dark Souls actively discourages others from trying to improve the lots of their own and others lives, and if presented with an alternative might change their ways. Because the greatest temptation of all is to be good and to be appreciated for it.
Respect is somewhat trickier to manage, as it demands the villain to possess a trait that the reader/played respects regardless of their actions. It can be loyalty, sympathy, (both for the character themselves or the sympathy they displat for others,) determination or something else, the character has something that we value in ourselves as an intrinsic part of their personality.
The last is probably the least relevant here. Villains that straight up do evil because they enjoy doing evil can be both fun and horrendous. They can be Discord or the Joker. But if I see a villain doing something with a smile on their face and can spare a laugh or three for the heroes attempts to thwart them, I got to admit there's a part of me that likes them. It can be kind of hit or miss, though.
Also, actually saying something might help. Mute protagonists are well and fine in games, but IRL that just comes off as aloof and menacing.
3073000 Hmmm...well I can't promise the Chosen Undead will have much to say going forward as she's more about letting her actions speak for themselves (and they will bear out that she's a nicer soul than she looks), however, I do believe I can make use of the rest of what you've said. Thanks very much for your input!
On the matter of where is the line between Anti hero, Villain and Monster I can only give you my opinion Anti Heros are in most ways sympathetic you understand why they do what they do and agree to at least some degree with their why but the what is well into the other court Anti Heros are disturbing in the Zealous need for their goals and often unstable disposition but their still good people and won't do the ingrained repulsive thing such as murder children (with out really just cause), Tourture (Unless the opponent is just the level of scum to justify the hero in the eyes of the audience) Flat out betray their friends and family.(without the I need them to hate me excuse) then finally the unbreakable never except able choice rape a anti hero will never ever do this for any reason except maybe as a threat with no intention of going through with it, also murdering actual Innocents is a good slippery slope moment such as shooting through the hostage, not bothering to save them Because why should I, and simlair.
Now villains Are bad guys but again we should be able to understand either their motivation or how they became estranged anoff from reality we can't understand their motives Villains are people greed, envy, vengeance, duty, grief, belief and even love can motivate villains some are tragic and others are not but villains should be comprehensible to audience and should be people the doubt, regret, feel pain, have emotions and honestly care for their goals wither this be the envious outcast taking their unearned rejection out in the world with their newfound powers, or the grieving father hell bent on killing hundreds of people to bring his daughter back by Pacting a demon. Seath is a villain one motivated by greed a very understandable thing from the human perspective he desires power and immortality he feals emotions and has doubts on occasion. Now villains also are ovibously set in the same vain of deeds as antiheros except betrayal is no longer an issue Hipocracy and innocents dying is nearly as much of a nock to their likability on the other hand the no killing children rule is iron clad along with the rape rule nither of these can a villain due without immediately passing into hatred territory and Tourture is likely to get the same result unless comically inept or non physical.
Monsters on the other hand are not understandable their reasons are simply to strange, demented, or painful to be understood. They don't have doubts, the don't stop feel pain and are more like forces of nature with a cause and a face then people. Or their methods or form are to out their to classify them otherwise world peace =instrumentality or looks like a demon are good examples of this. The demented are often those who want to end the world or thing that pain helps people so why not create suffering kind if folk. Strange usually belongs to things that you can't wrap your head around at all And painful belongs to usually people who are trying to fix the world no matter what, or protect/bring their family back to life no matter what we understand but their so warped from human at this point it doesn't matter. The chosen undead and master chief I would say are two good examples of heroic beings that fall into the mobster category we just can't wrap out heads around the chosen undeads problem and most can't imagine burning for eternity so the bastards that caused all this to get away with it. Both also come off as forces I nature silent, unstable and utterly unwilling to listen to what you have to say the termination actually could go here to. Then villainous examples are such figures manus who to us is just an eldritch abomination, Ikari Gendo his want to bring his wife back yes his utter dissipation from humanity no. The captain from hellsing ultimate who simply wants a warriors death wile serving the man who saved him okay, working for nazis and being a weird spirt werewolf mute no. Every person who tries to conquer the world to save it ever etc.
Hope this answers your question.
3073612 It helps a lot. Thank you!
My initial response to your portrayal of the chosen undead was to wonder if you were trying to make her into a villain. After a little while, I decided her behavior was more consistent with someone who resented the things they were made to do, and who had long ago stopped thinking of herself as a moral person. Not someone who is evil or cruel at heart, but who was forced by circumstance to do evil and cruel things, as the only other option is to be trampled over by the ones who have no moral compunctions.
I also think the fact that you were aiming for her to be redeemed (or at least developed) was obvious because of the amount of screen time she's been getting. Although I don't personally think she has anything to atone for (but she seems to think she does).
For me personally it's less what she does and more how she feels about it. The Chosen Undead, without us understanding why she does all the things she does, would be a monster without equal in our eyes as she charges across the land, systematically murdering everything she comes across that doesn't introduce itself with a smile. If she were to kill ponies I wouldn't see that as inherently evil as she lives in a world where life is the cheapest commodity available. I personally look forward to her reaction to the news that she's escaped a dying world and entered a new and prosperous one. Although I will admit her inability to care about basically anything not human does sort of alienate me a bit. Poor Fair Lady