Let's talk about respect · 10:49pm Jul 19th, 2020
Guaranteed this one's going to generate a lot of backlash, but it's also going to be relatively short. So here's a few other blogs you can read afterward:
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/910024/signal-boost
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/910028/rational-debate-changed-my-mind
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/910034/right-wrong-and-humor
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/910064/just-my-little-two-cents-regarding-the-current-issues-discussed-in-the-fandom
The English language is an unfortunately flighty medium to use to talk about stuff. It's so easy to get confused by all the damn words and how they can have a lot of different meanings and sometimes multiple words can mean the same thing. I mean, we've got contronyms! Other languages have them, too, but come on!
I taught ESL for a year. I remain impressed at anyone who succeeds even a little to incorporate this hell tongue into their mind.
With that in mind, let's talk about respect! Namely, the word itself. An argument I've seen for a long, long, tiresomely long damn time goes like this:
A: "You need to treat me with respect!"
B: "Respect has to be earned."
And it usually ends there. But it needn't, oh no. Because the fact is, our A and B here are using the same word, but with different connotations.
What A wants is consideration: a baseline sense of kindness for another living being.
What B is talking about is esteem: a sense of awe for another who is held in high regard.
And because respect means both of these very different things at the same time, we go round and round in circles talking about two completely different things while pretending we aren't.
Because in the end, both A and B are right. Everyone should be treated with a baseline of consideration, at least until they prove themselves as lacking in consideration themselves. And esteem, awe, what you have, should be doled out carefully so that you don't find yourself posting a tearful diatribe on Twitter because a musician you've followed and respected for literally 20 years throughout numerous different fandoms including this one right here has suddenly been outed as a pedophile.
Y'know. Hypothetically speaking.
So the next time you get in an argument with someone, online or elsewhere, and respect enters the picture, remember to take a second and determine just which kind of respect both you and your opponent are arguing about.
And then just keep arguing because no one wants to change their mind ever idk
I'm not sure why this would generate backlash, other than Fimfiction currently being on fire.
I read this and thought, "Why would this generate backlash?" But then I remember the many times I argued in blogs and how I said things that shouldn't be controversial, and frankly aren't, but then somehow turned out to be. Whether this is from where these people really are, or if they're being contrarian and just arguing for arguing's sake doesn't matter because it serves the same purpose.
Either way, good blog! It's nice sometimes to take a step back and define the terms used online, and in this case, how they can be mischaracterized.
While I was working corrections, there was a supervisor who had a very good, quotable statement:
“Respect: freely asked, freely given.“
People, all people deserve respect. It should be freely given.
What's interesting is I've agreed with both sentiments simultaneously while never having had the need to examine the connotation of each one. Language, especially one you grow up with, is weird.
I'm impressed with the immaturity of youth (big shock), because they seem to believe the amount of respect and consideration they deserve is directly proportional to the amount of anger and indignation they display to the world. Where they see themselves as bold crusaders... Oh, bad word. Ahem. Bold progressives pressing back the borders of evil by their righteous indignation at all things they have determined to be hated. Whereas I raised children, and I'm fully aware of what a toddler throwing a fit in the grocery store looks like, and the proper way to treat them so they are not scarred by the experience, or encouraged into using it at every opportunity afterward.
Civilization is built brick by brick, by the actions and writings of honorable humans. Sometimes, bricks fall and we have to stack them back up again. Sometimes the bricks are stacked in a way that harm others, and we need to restack them. Humans are brutal, nasty creatures, tending to the strong dominating the weak. To blunt that, we need rules to follow, all the way from the Ten Commandments to current traffic regulations. We compromise, we build protections into laws so we don't have a tyranny of the majority, we vote to put what we hope are honorable people in charge, and we design a government so even when dishonorable people wind up in those positions, they are unable to pervert the laws to their own purposes by letting their own minions go unpunished, or siccing the power of the government upon their enemies.
And yet I am told by emotional children that if I do not denounce certain thoughts as loud as I am able, I somehow am a supporter of those thoughts and deserve to be punished. I am told that people decades ago who kinda-sorta looked a little like me once committed a terrible evil, and for that I deserve to be punished. Every time the crybullies win, another brick gets kicked out of the civilization structure. I have great respect for people as a general rule. That respect drops every time they accuse me of a crime I did not commit, or tell me to do something under threat of 'retaliation.'
5315611
You meant the WORLD is on fire.
never heard wiser words before that helps allot with some of my relationships thanks
5315678
Ok boomer
5315611
MY world is on fire. How'bout yours?
That's the way I like it, I never get bored.
Seen this posting floating around the internet before, more or less saying the same thing.
i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/d3/20/edd3200e5472fce906a32fc23f120f73.jpg
5315678
Ugggggggggggggggggggh
5315749
I'm not downvoting this, but I don't have to upvote it.
5315678
Do you really have to belittle others to make your argument?
I'm serious. It's fine to take issue with other people's behavior when you disagree with it, but I think people would groan less and consider what you have to say more if you didn't end every screed with "you damn self-centered kids get off my lawn".
If I meet a stranger and know absolutely nothing about them, I'll start with a base of treating them with respect, because I think we should do that with everybody. It's after this when I learn who they are, or what they stand for, so on so forth where I determine the amount of respect I want to continue to give a person, down to even a situation where I might not want to give them any respect.
The fact that merely having respect for people is getting questioned is quite worrying though, among the other thousand terrible things currently going on.
Everything kind of brings backlash. It's kind of normal really. Every little deed could bring some sort of backlash. But it's best to keep on moving and enjoying what you do. But what it comes to respect always give them respect even if they don't do it for you.
if they treat you awful don't treat them just as bad. Be the adult prove to them you're willing to move on than be angry.
Thanks for the links!
5315823
I'm frikkin' ancient, and I still think he's being an old fuddy-duddy.
5315854
I'm getting up in years there myself. I'm amazed my hands don't tell my age yet.
5315678
Making this about age distracts from the real issue... We can discuss how your age group had an easier time than the current group another day... But that discussion can wait until you've died of old age for all that it matters. The stuff people are upset about right now? Well, the LGBTQIA+ (did I get them all?) community isn't getting any straighter, the minorities in the US aren't getting whiter with age and the poor and working class aren't getting any richer.
5315678
I haven't mentioned it before, but I tire of seeing your comments of late. You add nothing to these discussions but ignorance and condescension. You hear pleas for justice and reject them for unimportant reasons. I was honestly shocked at first, but now I am just tired. You have disappointed me utterly. Please do not darken my doorstep again.
5315749
I hate this comment for completely different reasons. >:B
5315757
Ah! I remember seeing that once upon a time, and it's a far more detailed way of stating my point here. :D Thank you.
And German knew French and begat a horror that did consume all loose vocabulary it could reach, and this meant that, and the one meant the other, and there was much confusion and rending of garments.
But yeah, a lot of Internet arguments could be, if not defused, then at least toned down by all involved parties checking each other's definitions of the terms in use. Who knows, something productive might actually come from all of it!
(I know, I know. I truly am the most hopeless of optimists.)
5315937
Hey, the Germench coming out of my mouth takes offense at that! No one important was using that vocabulary!
5315915
derpicdn.net/img/2020/5/12/2346631/large.png
Two other aspects of respect that I consider important:
How you show respect when there's nothing to be gained from showing respect. If you loudly proclaim how important respect is on the public stage, then treat your waiter and cab driver like crap, you're not actually showing respect.
How you react when not shown respect. The Hatfields and McCoys is the classic American example of this going wrong. If not being shown respect leads to a generation-long feud where violence including murder is deemed acceptable, there is something wrong with you.
5315701
Very true. But to some of us, Fimfiction is the part that matters! :V
Genuinely surprised nobody posted this here before now:
5315678
Seriously? When has anyone told you to denounce thoughts loudly? If you think it's posturing like changing your facebook avatar, then ignore it the same way everyone ignored changing your facebook avatar. Who has said you need to be punished? Who accused you of what crime? What retaliation were you afraid of for doing nothing? This kind of seems like someone hijacked your account.
Honestly a pretty good thing to keep in mind.
5315678
Just wanted to plant a flag and say thank you for adding something meaningful to the topic.
From experience, I know that many will share the opinion, but few will admit to it.
-M
5315914
And that's just it.
It goes from anger, to sadness, to tiredness, to giving up.
You can't argue basic human rights, basic human decency and dignity, much less empathy. There are no 'two sides' or 'balanced views' to this.
5316407
Yes. I've been looking for a place to say this. When one side's argument is "please don't kill us" and the other is "nah, we gonna kill you", there's no middle ground.
People will create it, though. :/
5316222
I do think that this needs to be said so I apologize in advance if this bothers anyone. What Georg is saying here is a very real thing that is happening in parts of the US. It is something that has been happening in parts of Canada for several years as well. For example, this is exactly what happened in the Evergreen college incident. Watch this video from the timestamp to 21:13 to see an example of exactly what Georg is talking about. I would also encourage you to watch the entirety of that particular podcast but that is a side point.
https://youtu.be/10XYi6E2QpI?t=1027
If Georg has seen this in his personal life away from here, I cannot say that he has seen it here because I have not been paying close attention to this entire thing*, then I really feel bad for him as he is talking from experience about something that no one should have to deal with.
What these people are doing is trying to force someone into their line of thinking with an absolute ultimatum of either you agree with me and everything that I say or you are the enemy. This kind of behavior is extremely dangerous, regardless of how good their stance might be. There is no negotiating with them. No reasoning. Bullies creating a mob and trying to force their views on others with very dangerous ramifications that remove the very foundations of what the US is built upon. Particularly freedom of speech and freedom of belief.
Effectively persecuting someone because they don't agree with your views, no matter how right your views are, is extremely dangerous behavior to be exhibiting because of the precedence it sets alone. Trying to educate someone as to why they are wrong, or in instances where there is no established right and wrong view just sharing why you disagree, should be the action taken rather than ostracizing them for their views. Never mind that shunning them will very likely only reinforce their mindset and give them the opportunity to gather a following against you because you are deliberately excluding them. In case it isn't obvious, where that leads is violence and, in extreme cases, revolution with an extreme state taking over.
The very last thing you want to do is to ostracize someone from a community due to what they believe or think. At best, you are just reinforcing their line of thinking. At worst, you are feeding any hatred and ill will that they might harbor while reinforcing their line of thinking. More importantly, you are throwing away a valuable opportunity to help someone learn and grow as a person with potentially extremely disastrous consequences down the road. As risky as it might seem, bringing them closer, if you will, is better than pushing them away. As Daryl Davis has shown in real life, friendship really is magic.
* Yes, I have seen Georg's original post that I think likely started this entire thing directed to him. There were a few things he said that certainly got me to raise my eyebrows. I'd rather ask him for clarification to be sure of exactly what he meant rather than just jump to conclusions through potentially dangerous assumptions. He could have worded a few things poorly. Maybe someone has. I don't know because I haven't been following this entire thing closely. Either way, based upon what I have seen so far, I have yet to see something so clearly and irreprehensibly bad that I would shun him, want to exclude him to the point of never seeing him, or talk down to him.
Out of consideration to the blog post, I would ask that anyone that so feels led to show me what Georg may have said to cause any such attitude to them to PM me rather than drag the comment thread of this topic outside of what it should be about.
Edit: As much as I have heard some people bemoan Starlight's redemption this is exactly why she should have had a redemption arc.
5316793
There are a lot of very prominent people on this website who I have yet to see speak out one way or another on the current topics, and I hold those people no ill will. Because no, you can't police people's beliefs, but those people can also recognize when voicing their beliefs will do no good. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have to speak your mind about everything, all the time. That's what I was trying to get at over here.
I agree, except that no one in this day and age actually wants to change their views. Trying to engage and educate is a waste of your time. It's better to cut toxic people out of your life for your own mental wellbeing. And maybe, just maybe, if they lose enough friends, they'll start to think they were wrong. Not that they'll change, of course.
Like, seriously, you can show people data, graphs, trends relating to the spread of COVID and they still refuse to wear a mask. A different situation than what's being talked about here, but a solid example of the mindset. And this is everyone, on both sides and in the middle, and it sucks. The only thing to do is plow ahead and hope for the best.
5317107
Maybe I'm just excessively naive, but I feel like either not engaging at all or at least trying to educate are far better options than actively antagonizing and insulting someone. And I feel like I've seen too many people all over the site choose, for some reason, to engage via insults and generally antagonistic behavior. And then they're surprised the arguments continue, that the insults keep getting slung around? It's all a mess.
On topic,
This was A+. Thank you.
Perhaps slightly off-topic, but, who is this referring to?
5317248
I'll tell ya, I struggle with the concept of "educate yourself" as both lazy on the part of the person saying it but also a reasonably frustrated statement to make. Everyone needs to do better, even me. :C
5317330
Mandopony
5317391
I totally get the frustration, man. Everything's a mess.
5317391
5317248
I feel like in general this whole thing has gone on so long that engaging is just the same arguments, sometimes even with the same people, over and over and over again. It's tiring to see and even more so to participate in. If someone thinks something is wrong I don't know how good it is to encourage them to be silent just because they can't keep up with johnny alt-right's 56 page prepared essay on why the swastika is actually a symbol of freedom. There's definitely a time and place to let things shake out when there's people able and willing to engage but it's kind of a judgement call when to tell somebody to fuck off.
5317107
To go further in regards to what Csquared said, this is absolutely not true all of the time. When you aggressively challenge someone's views people will tend to dig into their beliefs that much more regardless of how false they may be. This is scientifically true. However, it is also scientifically true that if you listen and then, rather than bluntly challenge their views immediately, over time show them the truth they will change. This is part of what the Daryl Davis example I provided was meant to show. It took several years for him to get that leader to change his mind about his racist views. People will change over time if they are given the chance. Give them that chance. If you feel that you aren't the person to give them that chance and you feel like you must get them out of your life because you feel that they are too toxic then, by all means, do what you must for your well being.
Ultimately there are some that will never change. This I will not deny. However to say that nobody will is just naive. Look back to how you were 10 years ago, even 20, and 30 or more if applicable. Do you fully agree with every point of view that you held during those times? Change takes time amongst other things as convincing people to change isn't just about showing them the facts. To add to this, not everybody is going to be good at convincing people to change. Too many people who seem to try to convince other people to change seemingly only know to use the bullhorn method if you will. That is the least productive method possible. It also subsequently makes it that much harder for those that are good at it.
Finally, don't think that people will have an issue with 'losing enough friends.' Do you not realize that we are communicating on something called the internet that allows instant global communication with others? The internet is so vast that it wouldn't be that hard to find a group of like-minded individuals for someone to befriend over anything imaginable. That, in turn, will only provide to reinforce their beliefs. I am sure we both know where that can lead and it is never good. This is why education/help is the best option. If you don't provide that for whatever reason then so be it. There is nothing wrong with that. Make sure that you don't get in the way of others that might be able to though or you are only making things worse.
5317439
Unfortunately, we don't have time to allow people to come to the right conclusions on their own. :/ That's what frustrates. The same things have been said over and over again, for longer than I've been alive, or heard them, or cared about them, and people continue to refuse to change in large enough numbers that it's dangerous. And so people suffer and die under them.
Yeah, that's wishful thinking on my part. :( But then, everything is.
5317655
It is getting closer and closer to the actual point where this will be a true statement. For the time being though, we still do have time. Though I genuinely don't think it is much time. Contributing to this specific issue is the fact that most people are currently used to an 'I want it now/on-demand' culture that lacks patience. Additionally, so long as people regularly succumb to negligence (it doesn't impact me so why should I care) and ignorance (it couldn't possibly happen to me so why should I care) when it comes to any given issue it isn't ever going to be addressed due to apathy until it is usually too late, if at all. Admittedly, those aren't the only two causes for why issues go unresolved but they are, in my opinion, easily two of the most common when it comes to the general population. Add these together and you get most of the typical pattern of happenings in the world. How do you get enough people to care soon enough to deal with an issue in a timely manner? Oh, how I wish I knew the answer to that myself.
As for what followed that, a part of the issue is a lack of proper education on the source of the problems as well as any true concentrated effort to fix the core problems. Yes, it is more than just this. I'm trying not to go too far off the topic at hand though. For example, how many people realize and understand that a majority of the tragic police brutality that we have seen over the years is just a symptom of a much larger issue? The bigger problem is economic imbalance caused by the fact that economic opportunity is hoarded in the US. How many people are even talking about this fact, nevermind trying to do something about it, in the protests? What I see is most people focused on that specific symptom without touching on the larger issue itself at all.
Warning: political heavy content ahead. The economic opportunity hoarding has only gotten worse since the Clinton administration when the Democratic party joined the Republican party in serving bigger businesses rather than the people. Neither the Democratic or Republican parties are going to bother actually trying to address any socio-economic issues because they are both being paid off by those that are benefitting the most from the socio-economic imbalances. Yet I am willing to bet my life that most people that vote in the upcoming election are still going to blindly vote for Democrat or Republican representatives hoping for a change rather than actually trying to actively get change by voting for quality people not being directly supported by either party a la Eric Weinstein's example in that interview I posted in a prior comment. No, this isn't the entirety of it but it is a quick summation of the entire problem. Yes, it is all massively frustrating.
I apologize for going this far off-topic and getting this political. To avoid going further off-topic any comment I respond to will likely be via PM.