If you get yourself frozen properly, you can get resurrected, in theory. Our technology isn't quite there yet, but some people are already taking advantage of such prospects by freezing their heads, hoping to be resurrected in the future

There is no guaranty that any of them will be brought back to life, so what happens to their souls in the meantime? Does the soul just hang around, making sure that the brain gets dead enough before proceeding to Heaven? What if a frozen head was blasted into space, essentially becoming frozen forever? Would that soul never go to Heaven even if it belonged to a saint? Can one avoid going to Hell by freezing oneself?

Cryonics

4705987 I'd assume that if you're bound to wake up later on in the future, you don't but if you will die frozen you will. It's logic.

4706018 So, the present state of your soul is dependent on the future state of your body? Doesn't that kind of breach the concept of causality? Usually it’s the past that determines the future, not the other way around.

4706020 If God chose to let you live from the freezing, I guess. (I had just woken up, I can't remember the reasoning I had.)

4706058 You might be frozen for the next 1000 years, who knows if you're going to live or die after that. So, is your soul in kind of hibernation until the state of your brain can be determined to be completely dead?

Also, an unrelated question: Where is your soul when you sleep and don't dream? Can souls sleep also? Why would a soul need to sleep? It makes no sense.

4705987
In theory I suppose that could work if you feared hell.

"If you are a bad dude you're going to hell."

"Nah, I'll just freeze myself."

"Wait that's"

Although I suppose if God is omniscient he'd have some work around.

4706078 God can't send me to Hell if I never die.

4705987 I'm not sure where the idea of when you die, you go to Hell or Heaven came from, but I can tell you, no one is in either one yet.
This is coming from the Bible.
When you die, your soul goes to this place called Sheol, which is the Hebrew word for Underworld. Both evil and good souls go here. It's basically where your soul goes to sleep. It isn't a place of punishment, but a place locked outside of time.
I personally don't believe in the generally accepted concept of hell, where you are tortured for eternity. True, there is a place, but it's called the Lake of Fire. It is my belief it's actually where your body and soul are destroyed.

So in other words, until the Day of the Judgement before the Great White Throne, no one goes to either one.
But in truth, in Revelation, the righteous don't go to Heaven-they inherit the New Heaven and Earth, which comes after this one passes away.
So basically, they get eternal life on an Earth that is made perfect once more.

4705987 your only mostly dead, kinda like in a coma really.

4705987 It's a fun question... if it were possible. I'm not saying that we don't have the technology to do it, I'm saying it just really is impossible for complex organisms to be completely frozen and resurrect in the way that you've described. The cryogenic freezing would cause damage on a cellular level, effectively killing us anyway if the sudden frozen brain didn't. There's also freezer burn that would destroy our organs.

However, if it were possible, with the universe ultimately heading towards a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, I don't see why you couldn't stay frozen forever.

4706151 Interesting. I'm somewhat familiar without the soul-sleep/soul-annihilation concept, however, how would explain away passages that clearly show consciousness goes on after death? i.e., The souls that had been slain crying out in Revelation 6:9-10, or when Jesus cried out to the Father "Into your hands I commit my spirit," or the parable of the rich man who had gone to hades and pleaded with Abraham, among other examples.

4705987 Well, it isn't known for certain when the soul leaves the body after death, so it's quite possible that the soul does not leave until it has been damaged to a point of no return. In other words, it is not brain activity, but brain usability that determines actual death. Too many people have come back from 'clinically dead' for me to think that the soul leaves at that point, and being frozen could be argued as 'clinically dead' for a prolonged period. Of course, all of this is assuming that cryogenic freezing is possible, so...

4705987

According to Revelation, it doesn't matter; dead or alive, all the faithful will be brought to Jesus in the last days.

4706151 4706491

So in other words, until the Day of the Judgement before the Great White Throne, no one goes to either one.

dead or alive, all the faithful will be brought to Jesus in the last days.

People of all ages assumed that it will happen within their lifetimes. They were all wrong. For all we know, the judgement day will happen at the heat death of the Universe.

4706322 4706433

The cryogenic freezing would cause damage on a cellular level

Of course, all of this is assuming that cryogenic freezing is possible

This is from Wikipedia:

When used at high concentrations, cryoprotectants stop ice formation completely.

So, yeah, we have the technology to freeze someone without causing any information damage, we just don't have the technology yet to bring one back to life from that state.

4706516 It took me more than a minute to get the joke. I haven't seen Frozen yet.

Another thing that is proposed for resurrecting those who were frozen is to upload their brain structure into a computer and simulate their brain patterns. That begs the question, though. If you make a copy of brain stimulation, did you make a copy of a soul as well?

4706568

People of all ages assumed that it will happen within their lifetimes. They were all wrong. For all we know, the judgement day will happen at the heat death of the Universe.

I am not in disagreement with this interpretation.

4705987 First thing that popped into my head when I read the title

4706020
I would assume god perceives all of time as a single moment and causality does not apply.

4709361 Why do we even need to be tested then? Why doesn't God just send babies to Hell if he knows what their future holds?

4705987 No, you can't go if you're Frozen, because it's an over rated movie and God hates those.

4710424
Because you have to sin before you can be punished. Otherwise what would you be even punished for?

4710571
Ironic, considering he is the most overrated mythology of our time.

4710915 Why do we jail people for attempted murder then? They haven't sinned yet.

Also, don't you experience cognitive dissonance over your view? In one post you say that God is above causality and in the next you're using causality as an argument.

4710915 I would disagree and say that Marvel's the most overrated mythology of all time, followed closely by Star Trek

4711053

Why do we jail people for attempted murder then? They haven't sinned yet.

What do you mean they haven't sinned!? How is trying to kill someone any more virtuous than actually killing someone? The only difference is whether or not you were competent enough to succeed.

Besides, sin is more about intention than action, because people can control their intentions, but not necessarily the consequences of their actions. If I try to help someone and end up accidentally making things worse, that does not make me a bad person.

don't you experience cognitive dissonance over your view? In one post you say that God is above causality and in the next you're using causality as an argument.

No, because I never argued that causality didn't exist, or that it didn't apply to people. I just said god would not necessarily experience it.

4711388

If I try to help someone and end up accidentally making things worse, that does not make me a bad person.

Some say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I never argued that causality didn't exist, or that it didn't apply to people. I just said god would not necessarily experience it.

God is the one judging, so why does He bother with causality if He's above it?

4711415

Some say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Totally different thing.

The expression refers on how people can have good intentions but still do things they know are bad and then rationalize it by saying their bad deeds are needed for the greater good. Like during a war, you would bomb a town to eliminate factories that are part of the oppositions war effort.

What I'm saying is that you sometimes can do good things and still end up with a bad result. Like you could give someone strawberries as a gift and they end up in the hospital because turns out they are allergic.

God is the one judging, so why does He bother with causality if He's above it?

Because people are bound to it.

4706322 The souls crying out may be able to ONLY because YAHOVAH allowed them to.
Now about the parable-that was actually just a story the Messiah had made, but it was made, to drive his point home. He didn't actually go into Hell and talk to the rich man.
I stand by the idea that the Lake of Fire destroys the body and soul because Yehoshua(Jesus's real name in Hebrew, supposedly. He was a Jew.)
said that You should not fear those who can destroy your body, but to fear the ONE who can destroy the body and soul. So likely, the Lake of Fire does just that.

4712766

Wow, I'm impressed. You wrote an entire paragraph with absolutely no trace of sane, coherent thought anywhere to be found within. Your ability to spout absolute nonsense is almost worthy of applause.

4711415

Some say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Well that just seems silly, doesn't it? It stands to reason that the majority of stones on the road to hell would be paved with bad intentions, right? I mean, it's not as if the intentions of Hitler, Ivan IV, Timur, and the like were ever anything but killing enough people to count as man-shaped natural disasters.

Of course, then there are people like Robespierre and Lenin, who may have started out with good intentions but ended up inflicting just as much harm on innocents as the rulers they displaced. It's really hard to know if they had truly good intentions, though, because people rarely admit anything to the contrary. It's possible they had that evil, that ruthlessness and immense capacity for cruelty, inside them all along.

4712952 Most people have good intentions. At least from their point of view. Even Hitler. He wanted to secure a 'glorious' future for the whole world. In his mind, it was a noble goal.

4713119

Yeah, but his way of doing so was so blatantly evil - and his end goal horribly twisted in its own way - that it really doesn't count, at least not in my mind.

4713119
4713549

You cannot be saved by works, but apparently you can be damned by them.

#christianity

4713691

To be fair, it's more like #Protestantism, since that 'sola fide' nonsense was shat out by Martin Luther. At least the Catholic Church adheres to the belief that you have to be at least a relatively good person in order to get into heaven. Even if they might not have the best ideas on what constitutes such. *cough cough* Child molestation. *cough cough*

4713709

So far as I understand, the catholic church does not believe in salvation by works. They just take works as the evidence that you're trying, as the protestants generally do in their own various ways (for example, pentacostals take 'speaking in tongues' as a good sign).

4713980

Mmm, well you'd know better, wouldn't you?

4712952 And you obviously seem to think it was necessary to insult me, with a trace of sarcasm.
I do know what I'm talking about, the stuff I spoke about is there in the Bible. I wasn't even being spiteful or rude, and yet you target me like I've done you wrong. I've said these things only because I care, and I aim only to spread the truth. I acknowledge I'm not that good with words at the best of times, and I try to explain things the best of my ability. I'm not perfect you know.

4716813

I aim only to spread the truth.

Best make sure you understand the fullness of the truth before you try this.

As you say yourself: you are imperfect. As are we all.

4716830 I'm not lying. The Lake of fire exists, not this whole idea of Hell the catholic church made.
I'm just saying that popular notion of hell is just not in there.
And I'm not judging anyone-saying that right now before someone wants to label me for that.

Now, yes, I understand, I should full well understand the truth before I start saying it, but I have reason to believe what I understand, about this is true. But if you really doubt me, feel free to read your bible. It certainly does the job much better than I can.

4716813

You can comprehend the Bible to the greatest possible extent, and it will still make no sense. In fact, it will probably make even less sense. I won't blame you for that book's copious helpings of superstitious nonsense, but I would still try to implore you not to take anything the Bible says at face value. Examine it critically, and you will be doing your God far more of a favor than you ever could by blindly accepting the words of the established religious hierarchy.

I'm not perfect you know.

You say that like it's a bad thing. It isn't. Perfection is an illusion, and one that tortures far too many people who can never accept their own limitations. There is nothing wrong with being imperfect, so long as you do not let that fact weigh you down.

I admit, I was a bit dismissive and harsh in my last post, and that may be representative of my own flaws. I apologize for that. It is just my belief that religious texts such as the Bible must be examined critically and deeply by those who would base society around them, and that the many parables and riddles contained within should be stripped away to reveal what truly lies behind.

The many tales within the Bible shroud the messages it is trying to convey, allowing a dangerous number of interpretations that range from the benevolent to the monstrous. Such a vague text, that almost no two people can find agreement on, is not a good thing to be basing our society on. Even if you think the Bible contains some measure of spiritual truth, it is simply far too old and obtuse to be of any practical use.

4716951

I have read the bible. The lake of fire is for Satan and his fallen angels.

I'm just saying that popular notion of hell is just not in there.

At least we agree on something.

I have reason to believe what I understand, about this is true.

So does literally everyone, whether they agree with you or not. The quoted part is thus a non-argument. We should not be content to sit back and say "I am sure I know what I am talking about" when the search is for the ultimate Truths of the universe.

4716969
Let me ask you something, if I am not to take my Bible seriously-if I am to treat the same book, which was what the faith of all those who died for it as nothing more than superstition-what kind of believer am I? Does not that betray even those who died for it? Do you really think they believed in lies? There are many who would write false doctrines and pass them off as the truth, but in truth, it is all lies. But I refuse to believe the very book which I found my faith upon, is nothing more than a fairy tale.

Why is it that we all take novels, television, cartoons, video games and all sorts of things seriously-but we won't even try to take this seriously?
We'll believe anything that comes from the mouth of a college professor when they say their is no god. We'll believe scientists when they say the world was created by a big bang-even though that was all based on a theory.
The Book shows us who created it.
Without a god, this planet, our lives-nothing is special about it. WE are just some lowly, dirt ants sitting atop a world, floating around in space. We could be destroyed at any moment-and none of our lives even had any meaning.

Forgive me, I don't mean to be angry, but calling the book which I believe to be truth-the very thing that strengthens the spirits of others as nothing more than a fairy tale? I just want to tell everyone the truth, so they are not deceived by anyone else-Because the book is truth. If you are referring to the catholic church in terms what they have done in the name of our lord-they are not the true church. The slaughtered, tortured and persecuted others for their own gain. The Pope believes he is god, and he can change the bible. But that doesn't make the book evil-it makes the person who perverts it evil.

I have evidence this is all truth, and it's only five minutes long, so please, take the time to watch it. That's all I ask. If you still don't want to believe me, so be it.

4718227 So, in your opinion, Qur'an is not the truth, but is, instead, a bunch of fairy tales? The very book that, unlike the Bible, wasn't prone to translation errors.

People were dying to protect this holy book; some in horrific plane crashes. Are you saying all their sacrifices were in vain?

4716978 Actually the Book of Revelation says that those not found in the Book of Life would be thrown into the lake of fire, along with death and hades.
So, clearly this applies to of us-not just the Deceiver and the Anti-Messiah.
What it means by those not found in the book of life must be referring to those who are not righteous.

I'd hate to say it, but that's the truth, and it's all there; and this isn't me being judgmental or spiteful. I wished there was none that had to be thrown in the fire.

4718278 Let me start off with this: Look at the islamic world. You know what I see?
Mistreatment of women, like they are nothing more than property.
Isis is over there, herding Christians into cages, and burning them alive.
They call the most high God, allah, when His true and holy name, in the Original Hebrew was YAHOVAH. I stress the importance of His name because that is His name we should call upon. This applies to Christians who call him GOD or LORD. Even to the Rabbinical Jews who say his name is Hashem.
One name, One god. In fact, allah is really just a meccan moon god idol.
They put Muhammad as the greater prophet, and Not Yehoshua(Jesus). Muhammad could just be the arabic name for Yehoshua, but that's not his name. Yehoshua is.
I don't know why everyone is getting upset with me, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm trying to everyone. I'm telling you the truth.
Blowing yourself up in the name of your god is not what the Most High God said to do. He didn't say go persecute anyone that wasn't Christian, Jewish or Islamic.
The Bible says no where that the righteous would ever be thrown into the lake of fire. But the Qur'an states all must go to hell, and the righteous will be risen from it. What kind of god sends his most righteous into the fire? That's lunacy, I'm sorry, it is.
There's a contradiction here, I'm sure you can see.
It's not my opinion that it is wrong, it is the truth. I do not insult arabs. They are humans as well, and everyone of us are just as small or great as the next. But I will not stand for false doctrines-doctrines clearly not found in The Bible.

The Seven Feasts written in the old Testament are what we should be practicing, not the traditions that Christians have adopted. Not the ones from Islam.

4718227

Does not that betray even those who died for it?

Perhaps, but they are long dead. What you need to concern yourself with is the living, and what will happen to society and all who live in it if we continue to take these ancient texts seriously without questioning them.

Do you really think they believed in lies?

Yes, or at least falsehoods. I do personally believe that many prophets, such as Jesus and Muhammad, genuinely believed in their work and saw God's hand in it. But that doesn't mean that there weren't many other hucksters and self-interested jackals taking every available opportunity to twist, warp, and otherwise obfuscate the intended meaning behind their teachings. And even if there weren't deliberate attempts like that, the passage of time eventually obscures everything, making it hard to tell the difference between truth and deception. Not to mention that, for the most part, people see what they want to see in texts like these.

Why is it that we all take novels, television, cartoons, video games and all sorts of things seriously-but we won't even try to take this seriously?

Nobody I have ever met believes that the world of Equestria is real, or that the morals shown in the show should dictate the laws of our land. Ditto for Batman, Game of Thrones (thank God), and World of Warcraft. That comparison just falls flat at a very basic level.

We'll believe scientists when they say the world was created by a big bang-even though that was all based on a theory.

I am long past sick of explaining this to people, but scientific theories are different from what average people consider them to be. In science, a theory is essentially a fact, except it can't be called that because science is so relative and wishy-washy that it's essentially the opposite of the Sith. Who, if you ever watched Episode III, only deal in absolutes.

Without a god, this planet, our lives-nothing is special about it. WE are just some lowly, dirt ants sitting atop a world, floating around in space. We could be destroyed at any moment-and none of our lives even had any meaning.

You're touching on one of the biggest reasons why anyone believes in religion right there. Fear. People are afraid of the truth, which is that we have no intrinsic purpose and there is absolutely nobody looking out for us except ourselves. Personally, I'm entirely okay with that, and I think it actually makes the world and universe a lot more interesting, and opens up limitless possibilities for humanity. But then again, I'm the kind of person who isn't usually afraid of the unknown, at least not in the abstract sense. It seems most people would beg to differ.

The slaughtered, tortured and persecuted others for their own gain.

Indeed they did. So did the Protestants. I may not like the Vatican too much, but they are no worse than any other denomination. They've just been around longer.

so they are not deceived by anyone else

Yes, so that they can instead be deceived by you. You think the Bible is truth? Why? How can you truly verify that belief? And in addition, how can you objectively claim that your book is any more valid than the Quran, or the Tanakh, or the Bhagavad Gita? Because it's not as if there aren't Muslims, Jews, and Hindus who believe in those texts just as strongly as you believe in yours.

4718351

What it means by those not found in the book of life must be referring to those who are not righteous.

Revelation never says what the Book of Life is, so you cannot just assert this without a strong supporting argument.

Furthermore, Revelation 20 actually contradicts the rest of the bible and most christian traditions on salvation. Specifically, it explicitly contradicts the teaching that salvation is never found through works:

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

-Revelation 20: 13

Revelation may be a source of good biblical allegory, but it is not a good source of literalist doctrine. Remember: Revelation is a dream. Dreams that are not visions have little meaning save to document our current anxieties or obsessions, but let's assume for the sake of the argument that Revelation is a vision. Visions, too, are rarely literal in their meaning, even when they are recorded literally word-for-word and image-for-image.

One thing from another post:

if I am not to take my Bible seriously-if I am to treat the same book, which was what the faith of all those who died for it as nothing more than superstition-what kind of believer am I? Does not that betray even those who died for it? Do you really think they believed in lies?

Lotsa people died for things that aren't true. There have been centuries of warfare between sunni and shia islam, many buddhists have died for their beliefs, North Korea kills literally anyone of any religion other than Kim Jong-ism (seriously, they've evolved their "love" for their leaders into a disgusting national cult), China used to act similarly, Japan used to act similarly, some Roman emperors did the same for the enforcement of their own deification-cults, and so on.

That someone has died for a belief does not make that belief true. What you have is not a functional argument, because if dying for a belief made that belief right, then literally all religions would be correct.

4718445

Mistreatment of women, like they are nothing more than property.

Look at the rhetoric spewed by the Christian right in this country, and you will see that the West has moved away from treating women like cattle in spite of Christianity, not because of it. The Middle East simply has not had the opportunity to secularize as the West did, and Islam remains in much the same state it was in seven hundred years ago.

Isis is over there, herding Christians into cages, and burning them alive.

If you are going to judge Islam by its most vile and despicable members, it seems only fair to judge Christianity the same way. Even putting aside the plethora of historical figures who slaughtered in the name of Christ, you've got such wonderful examples of humanity like the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, more than a few of the worst African warlords, and the majority of American domestic terrorists. Do you really want to be judged for the actions of people you don't even know, simply because they at least nominally follow the same religion as you?

No? Well neither do the vast majority of Muslims, especially since most of the people ISIS has killed have been Muslim, and were killed either for not following ISIS' absurdly strict and hypocritical version of Sharia Law or for more mundane gang reasons, like for money and sex. You might want to keep that in mind.

They call the most high God, allah, when His true and holy name, in the Original Hebrew was YAHOVAH.

Are you kidding me? I'm trying to be respectful here, but this is just stupid. This is God you're talking about. He is going to know when someone is talking about him no matter what they call him. Demanding everyone call him by that one specific name is pointless and incredibly petty, and frankly beneath someone who is supposedly that powerful and benevolent.

Oh, and fun fact. Allah isn't actually a thing. It's just their generic term for god, misused by Westerners to make them sound frightening and other. But nope. So unless you want them to use a language that isn't theirs, like some kind of imperialist ass, that expectation is also dumb on another level.

They put Muhammad as the greater prophet

Inferiority complex much? Can't stand having Jesus be number two to some guy who actually was a lot more impressive in his objectively recorded feats than Jesus was in myth? Well, that's too bad for you, isn't it? There's nothing you can do or say to make the Islamic world suddenly bow their heads and accept Jesus into their hearts, any more than the reverse. If you aren't willing to consider and respect other points of view, do not expect anyone else to give you that courtesy in return.

Blowing yourself up in the name of your god is not what the Most High God said to do.

Bombs didn't exist back then, so obviously he wouldn't have said that specific line. But he didn't seem to have a problem with people sacrificing themselves for their faith, as in becoming martyrs, which is - in a very, very flawed manner of logic - what those suicide bombers believe themselves to be doing. Really, though, Christianity is not very different from Islam where martyrdom is concerned.

But the Qur'an states all must go to hell, and the righteous will be risen from it.

I'm not saying Islam or the Quran don't have problems, because they certainly do. I'm just saying that it is no worse than Christianity, and that you must recognize that your faith is just as flawed and corruptible as any other. I don't expect you to abandon your faith, at least not entirely, but I do expect you to respect the beliefs of others. You should not be claiming that your specific way is the only way, when you have absolutely no way to prove it. All you will do is start yet another pointless and unwinnable religious conflict, and the world does not need more of those.

It's not my opinion that it is wrong, it is the truth.

Simply saying that something is true does not make it so. Without any way to verify your claim, it is meaningless to anyone except those who believe without evidence. If you wish to be one of those people, that is your choice, but do understand that it is a choice many people - including myself - will never make.

They are humans as well

I do hope you don't expect applause for that incredible feat of observation. That should have never been in question to begin with.

But I will not stand for false doctrines-doctrines clearly not found in The Bible.

I addressed this above. But I ask you, why is the Bible true? What says or shows that it is? The Bible itself? Doesn't that strike you as strange, to consider a book to hold absolute truth because the book itself claims to be absolutely true? What if the book is lying? Have you ever considered that possibility? I mean, really considered it?

The Seven Feasts written in the old Testament are what we should be practicing, not the traditions that Christians have adopted. Not the ones from Islam.

That is what you believe. The Christians who practice those traditions you speak of believe otherwise, as do the Muslims. Personally, I believe none of these traditions should be practiced by anyone, but I also recognize that I have neither the ability, nor the right, to dictate what people believe or how they act in their own lives and homes. As long as it remains benign and harmless, it does not matter.

4718602 How does Revelation contradict salvation? Where in there does it say or infer that? What, all the bloodshed and destruction that will take place?
If revelation is wrong, why is it in the Bible? For that matter, if we are raised with the belief that the WHOLE bible is true, why is Revelation discarded? For that matter, why do christians discard the Old testament? I get that revelation is difficult to digest. It's terrifying to an extreme extent, but crazy stuff happened in the Bible before. In fact, the Judgements placed upon the wicked nations of the Anti-Messiah are very much like the plagues of egypt, just amped up to an eleven.
Or is it because the Pre-Tribulation rapture is no where mentioned there? That's because there is no pre-tribulation rapture.

4719098

How does Revelation contradict salvation?

Did you even read what I wrote? Because if you did, purposely taking my points out of context is not how you argue effectively. Let me remind you what the very next sentence was:

Specifically, it explicitly contradicts the teaching that salvation is never found through works: (quotes Revelation 20)

Or is it because the Pre-Tribulation rapture is no where mentioned there? That's because there is no pre-tribulation rapture.

Making up things to argue against that aren't related to anything I've said does your point a disservice. At least extrapolate on the logic of arguments actually given. This is unrelated, and you've done it more than once now.

In summary, you're going to have to do a lot better than rambling about five unrelated things at once and quoting people out of context to build straw men of them. You're not giving your viewpoint a good showing here.

edit: And you didn't actually respond to any of my other points.

4719098

In fact, the Judgements placed upon the wicked nations of the Anti-Messiah are very much like the plagues of egypt, just amped up to an eleven.

What you just said is full to bursting with superstitious nonsense. For one, who the hell is the Anti-Messiah?

Oh, and don't you dare say Muhammad. He wasn't perfect, and I personally don't believe he was an actual prophet of God - because, as mentioned before, I don't believe in God at all - but he was no more a wicked deceiver than Jesus or Abraham were.

4719110 Okay, I read revelation 20-but that doesn't contradict salvation.
And I'm not making up shit about the pre-tribulation rapture. The majority of the christian world believes that lie, that's why I brought it up.
I can understand, that wasn't really relevant to the conversation, but it is tied to Revelation, so yeah.
I'm pretty sure the book of life...is a book, detailing all those listed for paradise.

And another thing-are you really going to say the lives of those who died for the truth are meaningless? That they should have listened to the romans?

4719214 Superstition? You know, the waste of Sodom and Gomorrah is still there, just as it was stated in Scripture. In fact, the rock that Moses struck is still on Mount Horeb. Don't believe me? Look it up. I already showed you the evidence of Pharoah's chariot wheels buried in the red sea.
And Why is it that you dismiss my faith, but the moment I dismiss a doctrine that is based only on death and hatred you call me out on it? That seem a little hypocritical to you? Why is it that everyone can criticize anyone who follows the Bible, but they don't have the guts to do it to Islam?

And what if I speak ill of Muhammad? He himself was unsure whom he heard from, he believed they were dijiin, or demons-until his wife told him otherwise. He performed no miracles, and spoke no prophecies. Thus, he is no prophet. I love how you used the term inferiority complex, I'm sure that was a wonderful thing to say. Abraham was ever faithful to YAHOVAH. And Yehoshua went through so much for us all. But still, everyone places more importance on philosophers and false prophets. What, is the Messiah just not good enough for everyone?

I know I'm coming off as blunt and offensive, I apologize. My spat is not with the people, it is with the doctrine. Why is it that in this day and age, that hating something is now mistaken as hate for a group of people? Just look at the fandom-say one bad thing about a character, or the show, and a number of them lose their minds. Not all of them, but still a good number of them.
I know there are arabic people being killed by Isis, I knew that. That's why I speak vehemently against Islam, cause what do you think motivates Isis and all those jihaad(however you spell it) raids? Islam is a terror to it's own people. The women are treated like slaves. One woman told a judge they should punish the perpetrators of moral corruption, not the victims. When she took off her head scarf, and said one man made advances on her-she was hung to death.
Men can get away with adultery but not females? What, does allah play favoritism? A lot of people might say the God of the Bible is also a sexist. I beg to differ. He showed justice to both sides, not just to one gender.
Muslim get forced to wear sacks, be stoned to death-for being raped. Does that sound fair to you?

How about the fact that Islam promotes hatred and murder? All around the world, they commit atrocious acts of murder, and they still expect no criticism. From london, from New york, to Indonesia, and even in their own countries. The muslim people are not even safe as long as this doctrine stands. Why is it that we allow all this to go on, and yet, we will allow no one to criticize this practice? Are we, as americans, that weak? Appears so, since we are too darn afraid to stand up. We just trust in the Government-which, Obama bows to Saudi Arabian warlords. The same ones who murder innocents by the number.

They've killed buddhist monks, christian school girls, and many, many others. And you still expect me to respect a religion that promotes this? Our Messiah is a much better man that Muhammad could ever wish to be. The Messiah was a man too, and he struggled. For forty days and nights, he wandered, and was hungry. You'll discredit the Man who died for us all, but you won't discredit the guy who didn't even hear the Most High God to begin with. Islam refuses to accept that the Messiah died on the cross. Islam states man needs no redemption-he only needs to know the will of God to please God. It states man sins only because of his own ignorance.
You can try and try, but we will always stumble. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Islam even tries to claim man is inherently good. Right, that's why there's so much evil in this world. We have this natural bent in us that causes us to sin.
It's even got tons of errors. First off, it states that Abraham's wife was Hagar, which was actually just Sarah's hand maiden. Sarah was his wife. They state that Moses saw the flood, but um...that was Noah. It says Abraham went to sacrifice Ishmael but it was Isaac actually. I'd go on, but you get the point.

Sure, the early christian church messed up, and did the same thing. But that was because they abandoned the Bible. The adopted traditions that came from Babylon. Christmas? That wasn't the date of the Messiah's birth, it was Nimrod's-who became deified as the Babylonian sun god, baal.
See, I'm not just criticizing Islam, Christianity and Judaism are both flawed.
The Rabbinical jews believe only the Rabbi's can interpret Torah, and no one else. They add more laws to the Bible then was needed, in order that man would not break them. The truth of the matter is that man, regardless, would end up breaking them. And adding to the torah is just as bad as breaking it, if not worse. They don't even believe Yehoshua was the Messiah, and believe that the true Messiah could be anyone.
The Christian churches today teach that the Law is done away with, but that's not why the Messiah came. Christians take away from the Torah, and think that because of Grace, they can just sin and sin. The Messiah said he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.

And if the Seven feasts, which we are all commanded to observe-which is in the Bible, how then can a Christian call himself a Christian?
Now about the name. I should have mentioned that if one knows the Most High God, and calls upon a name-which could be the name of a false god, the Most High God will search their heart to see if they are calling out to him. But if you know the true name, you should use that name. No excuses. Our name is important to us, and we liked to be called by OUR name. Why is it different for the Most High God? It isn't petty-it's about honor, and HE wants us to honor him.

Finally, I want to ask a question. I was speaking to another, when you decided to but in. If you didn't like what I had to say, why did you get involved? If you don't even believe in the Bible-why are you even here. I'm not being spiteful, I'm actually curious. You discount the book, yet you are here on a group about the Bible. Are you just here to challenge our beliefs? Is that it? Did I wrong you? Did I do anything to oppress you?
All I have done is spoken what was written in the book, which was inspired not by man, but by YAHOVAH. Sure, the first Five books were written by Moses, but I believe it was all dictated to him by the YAHOVAH.
I hesitated to come to this group, because I heard only bad things about it. But I came, because I felt convicted. I felt that everyone needed to hear the truth, of what was really written here-since, it relates to the group. I would not feel good about myself If I did not speak up. I knew there was going to be opposition. I've already seen opposition to what I speak.

Now, I'm sorry that took so long, but I had to get my point across-whether or not anyone wanted to listen. If you don't like what I say, then I advise we both stop this conversation here.

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You know, the waste of Sodom and Gomorrah is still there

Really? Can you prove that? I mean, it's not as if there weren't many, many cities in that region that rose and fell over thousands of years. How can you be sure you found those particular ones?

In fact, the rock that Moses struck is still on Mount Horeb.

I already showed you the evidence of Pharoah's chariot wheels buried in the red sea.

Old tales like this usually have at least a nugget of truth in them. But not much more than that.

What, is the Messiah just not good enough for everyone?

What, is Muhammad just not good enough for everyone?

What, is Abraham just not good enough for everyone?

What, is the Buddha just not good enough for everyone?

What, are Zeus and Jupiter and Odin and Amaterasu and Vishnu not good enough for everyone?

You narrow-minded fool. Christianity is not the only fish in the sea. It never has been, and it never will be. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better it will be for everyone.

I know I'm coming off as blunt and offensive,

Yeah, I'm not even religious and I still want to punch you.

Islam is a terror to it's own people.

Because Christianity was NEVER like that, was it? Just forget about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Wars of Religion, the anti-Jewish pogroms, the genocide of the Native Americans, the Atlantic slave trade, the KKK and Westboro Baptist Church, and the evangelical preachers responsible for inducing anti-gay hysteria and violence in countries ranging from Russia to Uganda.

I am not defending the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Islam, not by any means. I know that there are many Muslims who have done terrible things in the past, and continue to do so now. But I refuse to allow you to place the blame for these kinds of atrocities solely on them, because Christianity is drenched in just as much blood as they are. Don't you fucking dare try to avoid responsibility here.

If you didn't like what I had to say, why did you get involved?

Because what you have said is utterly and completely wrong, in every possible way, and I can't let that stand. Your beliefs are not just wrong, but toxic, and they represent a dangerous way of thinking that could potentially undermine all of the progress Western society has made in the last few centuries.

Are you just here to challenge our beliefs? Is that it?

Yes. Evil wins when it remains unchallenged. I know that you don't think of yourself as evil, but what you represent truly is. I hope one day you will come to realize that.

I felt that everyone needed to hear the truth,

It's a little bit funny that your actions are based in the same desire for truth as mine are. And more than a little sad.