Sunset Shimmer didn't think twice about the assignment from her literature teacher, Mr. Turner, to read and analyze 'Harrison Bergeron' - at least, until she actually read the story and found herself fascinated with the ideas it presents. Unable to settle her thoughts, she goes to class the next day brimming with questions, only to find that Mr. Turner has the day off, and their substitute is an unusual teacher named Starlight Glimmer.
I highly suggest that anyone who has not had a chance to read
Harrison Bergeron give it a read.
Note: This story presents some of my opinions. If you disagree with something I have said, feel free to comment as I am always willing to participate in an open discussion.
I also would like to thank my wonderful Proof-Reader Song Coyote.
A counter point to the end of Ms. Glimmer's first point on technology. She saying that technology running what is the "average" is the best way, she forgot that a computer is just electricity, metal, and wires and that it is programmed to type or respond to something and in order to do so needs someone to program in what it needs so then it can respond, so in order for the computers to run the "average" somebody needs to be smart enough to program in the standards that will make the "average" for the rest of society and that is why egalitarianism will not work with humans. It will not work because everybody wants to be the Top Male/Female because that is how you survive, reproduce, etc. Ms. Glimmer in a nutshell is presenting what Karl Marx wanted of Communism in the Communist Manifesto where society would be a utopia with everybody equal but what she forgot was that for those who have the ambition to rule the utopia they will rule as they wanted; to as seen with the 1940-90's communism and in North Korea where only one person or party is in charge of the rules and benefits with a luxurious lifestyle while everyone else suffers.
5977755 i like your BF4 profile cover
5977755 I would point out that Communism and Egalitarianism are not the same thing. They often beget each other for many of the reasons that we have seen through out history (I am currently taking classes discussing the PRC so I mainly use examples from there).
There are many differences to Communism of Theory and Communism of Practice. In general for Chinese Communism the idea was the removal of property (a point Marx stresses much more then egalitarianism). To do this in China they separated into four classes (please forgive me for not listing them at the moment, its 4am here) and it wasn't until "The Great Leap Forward" that you start to see major trends of Egalitarianism in the "Public Communes". Most of the push for egalitarianism is the need to produce more resources and therefore need more farmers and labors (so changed the four classes into one). You also have to take into consideration Mao's distrust of scholars and intellectuals when seeing how china separated people.
As far as Ms. Glimmers first point, you make some very valid points about the need for human input into modern computers. However, when we do start to look at the super algorithms run by some governmental computers there are some patterns the develop that are entirely generated by the system, it could be possible (AI or not) that a computer could use data to do the calculations necessary to create the system she speaks of. She would of course have done research into developments of AI (seeing as this is the EQG world and not our world) which may be farther along then we normally would think.
5977842 Sorry if my comment made it sound like i was saying communism and egalitarianism were the same thing what i meant to say was that Glimmer was coming at the point of everyone being equal as from the viewpoint that Marx wanted when he wrote the communist manifesto. When it comes to my statement on egalitarianism i was trying to say that it really cant work on humans because in nature you want to be the top to get the best in whatever.
5977961 True in both cases then!
Sorry for misinterpreting it the first time around.
I think that a lot of my inspiration for writing this comes from being taught about communism in a communist country by people who, although are not party members, were raised under the parties system. I also wanted to stress the difference because I do think that many fans have been looking at the Cutieless Cult as a communist commune when it is not clear if that is the case. (One could make an argument about all of Equestria being Communism, pointing out that the currency system doesn't really do anything, and might be a left over function of an earlier time.
As far as why Ms. Glimmer believes what she does despite historical evidence otherwise, this is actually an exploration of the possibilities of Technology. So many of my classmates peers view technology as something that is bad and is only making people more lazy and easier to manipulate. I however, have decided that since at this point we cannot stop the forward movement of technology (the approach of the singularity) then we must embrace it and have positive discussions about how to use it to benefit mankind rather then fear it and therefore give the power to the people willing to use what we fear against us... and possibly create a society that we would turn out like the unnamed town in the show.
Hey, you stole one of my title ideas!
Very well done. There are a couple of hiccups here and there (capitalization,they're/there/their) but overall a very interesting take on the season premiere and its effects in the EG universe. One question though, is this story incomplete or not? It reads as though it's complete and I'm just wondering if you just didn't catch it.
5978481 Good call on the complete mark!
I'm glad you like it, It's an interesting thought experiment, especially when considering Sunset's idea that the great writers and thinkers of the human world might have had very different path when magic or wings were in play. It's interesting because I ended up writing that with out even realizing that I was applying it to Starlight Glimmer.
5978263 Its an amazing play on words, especially for this protagonist and antagonist.
Ok, the politics and sociology and such of humans here? It sounds good to me at first glance, but I can't really comment with any great detail or certainty except by pointing out the problem I see below.
One thing that I DO see as somewhat problematic is how you have portrayed Equestrian society. Your conclusions are plausible in a vague sort of way, but your premises are somewhat shaky. Let's look at the Mane Six, then Trixie, Flim and Flam, and the henchponies who attacked Daring Do:
Twilight, Applejack, Rarity, and Fluttershy would tend to support your conclusions. Pinkie Pie (maybe) and Dash (almost certainly) on the other hand are the exceptions that DISprove the rule.
Pinkie Pie likes making ponies happy, but her best efforts on that subject appear to happen OUTSIDE of her steady job. I suppose that Diamond Tiara's cutiecenera (sp?) might have been contracted through Sugar-Cube Corner, but for the most part the implication I get is that she spends most of her working hours as a salesmare, which does let her brighten up people's days, but not as intensely as her partying and miscellaneous interactions...
But the real killer is Dash. She isn't working in her preferred field at all. Rather she's working at something that shares some of the same skills, including leadership abilities (she HATED being made a wingpony). Now, granted, she might put in all of 10 minutes of work most days (and get the same amount done as her subordinates due to her speed), but in the end her official title has nothing to do with her long term goal of being a stunt-pony/military officer (remember Kaiju!Spike?). But she isn't, for instance, working in some lesser stunt team until she can get "called up to the majors". Her heroics around Ponyville probably didn't begin or end with "The Mysterious Mare-Do-Well", merely how much attention grabbing she was doing related to them. It would seem a stretch to say that she draws a salary for the sorts of things she does in that episode (if only because then she would have had a superior she answers to who could have called her on her behavior).
Trixie ended up working on the rock-farm when she couldn't practice her special talent for bits. Now, I can certainly see her going about her work with a continual shower of illusionary fireworks or something, and as long as it didn't distract her or them too much from her work the Pie's not objecting.
Lastly we have Ponies with cutie-marks that tend toward the criminal. Certainly I could see Flim and Flam being offered a deal by the Equestrian police and/or intelligence services: "Work for us or rot in a jail cell as too problematic to be allowed to roam free." and I could see the henchponies being conscripted into the military, but at the end of the day not every pony is going to be quite happy with that arrangement... and there may not be enough slots available for them all. You have to have criminals before you need sly law enforcement, and what if one of the henchponies couldn't really feel fulfilled beating up unruly beasts? Could they be trusted to be a "hard knocks" sort of self-defense instructor (I hear those sorts should be avoided IRL...)?
But... regardless of how a pony gets there bits, it is expected in Pony society that (in the non-criminal cases) they will, in fact, pursue their special talent with great energy. In fact, for an Equestrian economist I'd expect one of the most prominent "misery indexes" to be "ponies employed outside their cutie-mark areas", with the caveat that below a certain percentage it is considered to be asymptotically approach meaninglessness, because a lot of ponies really do have special talents that aren't really marketable. OTOH Trixie is the sort of case where that statistic is measuring something very very real.
So, the idea that everyone deserves to do what they love best is at least inherent to pony society, but the idea that they should be able to make a living doing so does not seem to be to me.
On top of all this, there seems to be a large amount of very much expected community service that won't match up with most individual pony's cutie-marks, at least in Ponyville. Winter-Wrap-Up, Tornado Day, and other events where the Ponies act in the role of "nature spirits", which while very much a part of being a pony has next to nothing to do with their cutie-mark. The Running of the Leaves OTOH doesn't count since Dash was actually surprised when Twilight showed up. Even there you could justify it as "earthponies are all expected to show up, and it is considered a good thing for a pegasus to do, but the unicorns usually don't bother".
In conclusion the idea that humanity should strive towards that level of self-actualization, and de-emphasizing earnings as a societal good has some plausibility to it*, but I think that Equestrian society as portrayed in the show actually points out that "self-actualization" and "pulling one's weight" do not have to occur at the same hours, minutes, seconds, or even days in an individual's life.
*Although in the ideal wealth is a measure of how much benefit you are bringing to others, or at least enforcing that to correct for the fact that there are "dirty jobs that someone has to do").
5980085 Thank you for such a in depth comment! Wow, there is a lot there, some of it I have already thought about some of it is new. I guess the best way to start is to state that this is still a very raw idea for me. Hence I tried to state it in a way that seemed to be a new idea to Sunset as well.
You are very right that special talents do not necessarily decree the ability to make money. There are many characters in the show and the comics (I will get to the "B Canon" later) who do not seem to be doing jobs related to their cutie marks. However, I can't (I'm by no means infallible so please correct me if I'm wrong) think of any character that we see who is doing a job that they dislike while also pursing their special talent. This I think brings up a point that sometimes the CMCs make me forget, just because a pony it good at something dosn't mean its their special talent, and ponies can have more hobbies then just their Special talent (look at the fan interpretation of Lyra), in fact many of the unhappy ponies we see are unhappy because they feel stuck with their cutie mark (Trouble Shoes) and feel like their special talent limits them.
Lets look at a few of your examples
Pinkie Pie: Her special talent is throwing parties, but her passion is making people happy, and she does this in whatever way she can, she is also a good baker (debatable) and does her job along side of the parties. I want to talk about money more later so for now I would suggest that pinkie is so happier active that when there is nothing super exciting going on then she needs something to take up her time, and what better way then to bake things that will make ponies happy!
To address Rainbow Dash, I think it might be important to talk about what her talent is vs what her goals are vs what she says her goals are. Rainbows talent is being really really good and flying really fast, like really really fast, and she takes that to mean that she is really really good a racing, however she could have easily decided that it meant that she could be a one mare weather team (isn't that what she is in the first episode?), but she decided what her talent means to her (just like everypony does). As far as the wonderbolts go, I'm not convinced that Rainbow actually will ever join even if she is offered. Sure she went to the training camp, but it was a sports train camp not a military training camp... I think that Rainbows drive to join the wonder bolts has less to do with her cutie mark and more to do with personal ambition, however, I think that she (like many other ponies) has goals that or something to strive for but not necessary to reach. I
I'm pretty sure that statement is super conviviality in one aspect or another so Im going to leave Rainbow there for now. Please everypony tell me what you think about Rainbow Dash's actual goals, this is just an idea but I am no expert and want to hear what you all think.
Next we have the Flim Flam brothers and the criminal ponies. For the Flim Flams I would point out that most of their products actually work (SSCS6000 and the apple corer from the comics) and most of the trouble they get into is from running cons, however also looking at the comics it seems that they arnt prosecuted, instead brought in front of Celestia or Luna who both seem to just tell the brothers they have to give the bits or land back (Again in the comics).
The criminal ponies are a new aspect to me, and I hadn't remembered them until you mentioned them. I will have to do more thinking about that, but at the moment I would probably categorize them as actually sticking to their cutie marks although not following the law.
These two cases bring up the issue of money in Equestria (don't worry I will get to Trixie). Money in Equestria is one of the least clear things about their society. Most of the time we see some bits trade hooves for things but we don't actively see any pony without enough money (An exception is when Fluttershy is trying to buy a cherry, but it is unclear whether she meant she didn't have the money with her or not, and also a 1000% increase of cost would often prevent many people or ponies from having enough cash on hand or hoof). This is then exaggerated when Rarity is in Manehattan, we never once see bits exchanged, instead of see only gems (and favors). These contradictions and variations in prices (one cherry costing one bit is absurd to begin with) can be seen to show that as you said money is not an issue, so when Flim and Flam have to give money back to coned ponies it is not actually a lose for them.
Now Trixie is an interesting case, and for that one you must go to the comics for. I question whether Trixie "Had" to take a job on a rock farm just to make a living. Or is this just Trixie's interpenetration of what happened... after Twilight defeats her in magic duel she goes back to performing and even has a standing engagement in Manehatten.
That of course leaves the Running of the leaves, Bring winter in, Wrapping Winter up, and the water spout... these are all things that could be done with magic (they sort of already are) or have teams of ponies that traveled Equestria doing them, however they are left to the towns themselves, and I think that much of research into the societal power of Ritual (check out Richard Schechner and other "Performance studies" academics) might do better at explaining exactly why these are done the way they are.
All in all I think that my idea of what is really going on in Equestria is heavily flawed and imperfect (although some of this comes from non-clarity in the canon). I think that there is a certain aspect to Equestian Society that we as humans could strive for: Non judgmental equality of opportunity.
What do you think Darco (and others)?
5980443 I think you have a lot of good points here, especially in how the criminal justice system works, but I think you're underestimating the influence of money in Equestria.
Remember Filthy Rich, the business pony who undercut all the other businesses with Barnyard Bargains to consolidate the market in Ponyville? What do you think those other ponies had for cutie marks, and what do you think they did after they were driven out of business?
Applejack wanting to earn enough bits at the Grand Galloping Gala (and presuming that the guests would be rich enough that she could earn a giant pile of cash) so she could pay for Granny Smith to get a prosthetic hip? Or fearing that if she agreed to the initial deal with the FlimFlam brothers, Sweet Apple Acres would go out of business? She is not just acting out of some kind of pride, clearly in Equestria you have to earn enough money to pay for basic necessities, or you can fall into poverty, just like on earth. And the way foals across Ponyville envy Diamond Tiara means that wealth and luxuries are greatly desired.
I think you are right that ponies tend to be very generous towards others, I suspect there is less of a formal welfare system in Equestria for the same reason there is less of an elaborate child welfare services department: the individual conduct of ponies is able to handle that in a way that obviates the need for government intervention.
I also agree that pony society offers support for individuals pursuing their special talent. But let me ask you this: Do you think janitors, sewer cleaners and maids have cutie marks appropriate for their profession? Clearly magic can't replace every dirty-working class job across Equestria. So either some ponies get a cutie mark for scrubbing a toilet bowl, and tell themselves somehow that is just as good as a cutie mark giving a pony super-speed or enhanced magic, or those ponies have a cutie mark in something unrelated to their job, and maybe they should have listened to their teachers telling them to have a solid back-up plan if their special talent doesn't turn into a lucrative career.
Do you think cutie marks are handed out by destiny, who is able to predict over the next 40 years job trends, regardless of what individual ponies like doing? Or do you think ponies practice what they love until they get a special talent in it? Because I bet when you are talking about 10 year old foals trying to earn their special talent, you are going to see a lot more of them practicing athletics to become Wonderbolts or Rodeo Champions than practicing their filing and typing skills to become data entry clerks. Nevertheless, the governments and businesses of Equestria probably need like 100 times the data entry clerks to function that they need of Wonderbolts and Rodeo Champions. What do you think the cutie marks and job satisfaction is for all those data entry clerks? Unless you think getting a data entry cutie mark means the pony always becomes satisfied with their future career, which would mean cutie marks act as a form of mind control on their bearers.
What about when new technology displaces old industries? When the railroads were invented, what happened to ponies who transported the goods across Equestria before then, and had wagon-hauling cutie marks? Even if they got jobs in rail, advances in technology usually decrease the jobs required, even as they create new jobs and wealth in other areas.
Fundamentally, you can't have a system where everyone has a job involving their cutie marks, as long as everyone's cutie mark is fixed at a young age. And unless cutie marks are handed out regardless of what the pony in question wants, there is no way every pony has a job even vaguely related to cutie marks.
Don't get me wrong, I really love how this story takes Starlight Glimmer's Equalism and interprets how she would look at Earth, I just think to compare Earth and Equestria, it's necessary to logically extrapolate how Equestrian society as a whole must function. Thanks again for writing this fascinating piece!
5981786 I don't think I ever even questioned whether you had issue with the story. I wrote it as fiction knowing that I did not have nearly enough information to support any claim in an academic way... it is also a benefit to write it from Sunsets point of view, that way her letter to princess twilight is really a reflection of the questions I want to discuss with other Bronies.
The question of cutie marks is an interesting one and to address it we need to split it into two categories: Cutie marks that are abstract (the main 6 etc.) and cutie marks that are obvious (lazy show artist
). Lets talk about the second group first. Examples would be: Davenport, Sheriff Silverstar, and the doctor at the hospital (Not The Doctor). These ponies, and other background ponies, have very job specific cutie marks. My theory on this actually has to do with what we learned about cutie marks in Bloom and Gloom: "A cutie mark wont change you no matter what you get". In other words these ponies obviously were so driven to do these jobs that it became their special talent... i guess out of the three listed above Davenport could have an abstract sales cutie mark and decided to name his store after it.
The more abstract cutie mark ponies actually fit the idea that ponies sort of decided for themselves what their cutie mark means.
Now, let's talk about taking away cutie marks... we have seen this happen twice now, with Terik and Starlight Glimmer... in both cases the ponies who have the cutie marks removed don't lose their special talent so much as become unable to function, lose of any sort of speed, strength, or energy. This leads me to believe that are actually part of a ponies soul like the Dæmons from His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. In The Golden Compass when the connection between a person and their Dæmon is severed they become a shell of a person unable to function and are considered almost near death.
I would suggest then that job choice actually has little to do with cutie marks, but the ritual and history of society encourages ponies to follow their cutie mark and do jobs related to them.
But that still doesn't really address your thought about dirty jobs. It is true if we had the magic of equestria we would still need maids, sewer engineers, janitors, ect. (although there are poeple in our world who do like those jobs). However, there is a major difference between our world and Equestria that I have not seen brought up in many conversations: Population Density. Equestria is incredibly underpopulated, even the big cities like Manehatten we see very few ponies (makes you question why the buildings are so big). When we look at place that have low population density, you start to see that many of the dirty jobs that many people have to do in our world or just done at home, especially before modern times when there was not a sewer system or electric lighting. These things or not unknown in Equestria but there would not need to be many ponies to run them as unicorns could just use animation spells to make things run (ex. Tanks helicopter thing, uses yellow magic from some unknown pony... obviously not a spell the pony has to keep concentrating on, it just works.
All in all I think that modern Equestria runs on a system where there is no need for ponies to fill jobs, instead jobs are created when ponies want them. This many not seem supported in the show, just as you pointed out that some sort of economy obviously exists. However, I think that 1. doing a job you don't want and 2. have to worry about money are actually contradictions to everything else in the world. They do exist, but it is my understanding that both of those "ideas" are actually cultural relics of older times, that although believed are not practiced.
What do you think?
5983911 I agree with a lot of your points about cutie marks. Some ponies have a cutie mark that gives them a special talent related to their eventual career. I remember discussing this earlier somewhere else, and the theory is that cutie marks manifest based on 3 things: Practice, Desire, and Destiny. Practice is just doing something over and over until you are good at it, and the pony's cutie mark is effectively trained to focus their special talent on further aiding a pony who is already skilled at something. Desire is a pony realizing what they want to do with their lives, and a cutie mark manifesting itself with a special talent that aids the pony in fulfilling that desire. Destiny is a some sort of fate that ties ponies to cutie marks that just appear, for reasons currently unknown. I think all three factors effect cutie mark selection to a certain degree, but some ponies primarily get their cutie mark based on lengthy repetition (Rainbow Dash, Twilight), some get their cutie marks based mostly on desire (Fluttershy, Applejack), and some seem to get them out of the blue (Pinkie Pie, Rarity).
I agree that the cutie mark is part of a pony's soul, though I would say that with Tirek and Starlight Glimmer, they lost their special talents, and Starlight Glimmer's Equal spell cost the ponies large amounts of strength, speed, and energy. Between those two, Twilight casting Starswirl's last spell, and the Cutie Pox, it seems clear to me the cutie mark is some sort of physical manifestation of a ponies magical special talent, and if it is required for the pony to use the magic if their special talent (not that they can't practice their talent at all, they just don't get the magical assistance they are used to without the cutie mark present). I definitely agree that Pullman's Dark Materials series, and that creepy thing where they cut a kid off from their Daemon, fits really well with what Tirek did especially.
I have to disagree with you almost entirely on the second part, though. You seem to be saying that ponies live in a Post-scarcity economy, where they pursue bits and work jobs only for fun, and if they didn't feel like it, nopony would need to work at all, except for the unicorns casting come-to-life spells. Do you really think the Apple family is putting off getting Granny Smith a prosthetic hip that doesn't pain her as a cultural relic? Do you think the FlimFlam brothers are traveling around Equestria, trying to scam ponies out of their bits and risking jail time in the process for fun? I'm assuming you aren't using the comics for canon, but there is a scene where those two are actually dragged before the Princesses and forced to pay financial reparations. All those ponies in Manehatten working reception, pulling taxis, carrying heavy loads as bellhops, they don't look like they are doing this for fun. Money is clearly a necessity for survival in Equestria.
I also disagree with the idea that Equestria is massively underpopulated. Rarity takes Manehatten shows us a city that feels almost as dense in both buildings and background ponies as actual Manhatten, there have to be several million ponies living in that city. I will agree with you that Equestria does have a fairly low population density, even compared to the US, roughly ballparking it I would wager 30-40 million ponies in greater Equestria. That's taking in to consideration all the areas that are wild and untamed like the Everfree. But how do you think all the ponies in Appleloosa, the Swamp Town we see Applejack deliver pies too, and other small earth pony farmin towns get regular access to unicorn come-to-life spell goods that do all their cleaning for them. The only pony we've ever seen use that spell is Twilight Sparkle, who's like 100 times more powerful than the average unicorn, and her spell immediately failed (though I suppose she perfected it for Tank's copter). I find it hard to visualize these giant factories of unicorns mass-producing magical roombas and such, and then giving them out for free to everyone in the country.
It is true that Equestria is embracing both technology and magic, and as the show goes on we see magitech progressing at a steady speed. In 2-3 more centuries, especially with Princess Twilight spurring progress, the ponies may actually reach a post-scarcity paradise. They're just not there yet.
5984714 I'm happy some one else caught on to the whole post scarcity thing. That is what really started me down this road. I'm willing to admit that maybe I am pushing the post scarcity thing a little more then plausible, but I do see it in Equestria, just the same as I see it in the USA. In neither case is it actually post scarcity, but in both cases it is there in many respects and it seems to be something that could happen within our life times... However, since no significantly large group of people have ever shifted from scarcity to post scarcity we don't actually know how people will function in a post scarcity era. It is possible that when specific countries in our world become post scarcity it will happen in a way that will not be immediately apparent (similar to changes in technology during parts of the 1900s). It is plausible that tradition and ritual will prevent the a soceity form realizing its post scarcity nature, especially if this post scarcity is created through the labor of other outside of that society (Cough cough 'merica cough cough).
As far as Flim and Flam go, I do count the comics, but I would point out that they are only ever punished with returning the money... they aren't ever thrown in jail... there is effectively no risk for them to run scams, because the worst case scenario is they have to give the money back to the injured party... i don't know if jail time is even a thing outside of the small frontier towns.
Speaking of small frontier towns, here is where things start to get interesting. You mentioned that the ponies in Appaloosa and the swamp town can't get the automated items (also tanks copter isn't enchanted by twilight, it has a yellow aura, my guess they asked a professional tinker to bring it to life). Well these towns down need automation, the ponies here are not living in the modern era... in fact the entirety of Equestria exists in a split era, some aspects of it, like ponyville, seem to function with technology similar to today, but then when we see appaloosa it is straight out of the wild west (or mild west if you prefer). This idea of ponies outside of the established cities actually helps to push the post scarcity idea... I think we could say that money does not really matter in ponyville.... yes the apples and grannies hip, but is that something that is even really possible? we dont see many old ponies and none of the ones we do see seem to have, so maybe hip replacement is not an Equestrian invention, what if the Griffons do the surgery and because their kingdom is not a post-scarcity one they ask for absurdly large payments... Pls Credit me anypony when you write a fic about the Griffon Surgeon doing a hip replacement.... but back to the point, money is meaningless in ponyville... heck does pinkie even pay for party supplies, I mean i guess she would have a tab, but still.
I also have to disagree with you on Manehatten having several million ponies. Here is a picture from the show:
i1.ytimg.com/vi/ZcsZmxEYl6Q/maxresdefault.jpg
obviously time square.
We can also guess the time as a clock is shown when they walk out of the train station shows a time the is roughly 10:05am. Okay her is a picture of Time Square (I picked one that seemed like a normal not very crowded day):
sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.xoy2BWUkyxFapJZ4t2L0EQ&pid=15.1&P=0
In MLP there is about 11 background ponies and one cab... real life at least 20 people and 8 vehicles... just saying as much life and bustle we see in Manehatten it is nothing... if you have ever been to NYC (especially doing tourist stuff) you know that Manehatten is dead comparatively.
Alright now for something more phone then comparing Equestia to real life; Cutie Marks! You made some very good points about cutie marks... I like the way that you break them into three categories. I would have ever put Twilight in the destiny category, because I don't think her cutie mark has anything to do with her magic! Let me explain.
Lets look at the events following the other 5's cutie marks:
AJ states "I knew then just who I was supposed to be. That's when this here appeared."
Flutter shy say "Some how I was able to communicate with the animals on a different level." and then her cutie mark appears.
Rarity does not say anything, but she does look at her flank as her cutie mark appears
Pinkie pie is interesting, because we don't see her get her cutie mark, we just see her when she say "I knew I wanted to keep smiling forever, and I wanted everyone else to smile too..." then she has her cutie mark at the party.
Rainbow talks about doing the sonic rainboom, and as she is flying knowing what she achieved she gets her mark.
twilight on the other hoof, doesn't even realize that she has gotten her cutie mark, it just appears on her flank and must be pointed out by the Princess... also, the six pointed star is the 6th element, when we first see it the symbol is the same (while the other 5 elements were just shaped like normal gems). I think twilight was destined to while the element of magic (a name she picked, its not clear what the element actually is.... leadership according to the alternate naming scheme Celestia uses when listing the qualities of being a princess). I have two theories on this. The first is that Twilight's destiny is to control the 6th element and therefore both her personality and cutie mark are set down to fate's hand, this explains Shining armors six pointed star as well because he is meant to shield the element from harm.... the second is darker, and has to do with Celestia having the power to take and change Ponies Cutie marks (we know other ponies can...), and because of this giving Twilight the cutie mark that would unlock the elements and training her to do so, ie picking her destiny for her (maybe trying to pick Shining armor first but changing her mind).
I think the first one is a lot more plausible and more likely to be what Faust had in mind.
Okay again it is 4am here.... I really need to just wait and respond to these, but I am having too much fun! Well then Good night!
5984961 Hmmmm. I'm not sure how a society could not realize it's own post-scarcity nature. Maybe we are defining the term a little differently. You seem to be using it as "where a society has sufficiently mastered resource production and distribution to the point where everyone can maintain a modest standard of living without working if they don't want to, provided the resources were shared equitably." By that standard Equestria, and a lot of developed nations have reached post-scarcity. That's basically just defining a compassionate nation with a robust welfare state, but Sweden is not a post-scarcity society. I use the more classical definition of "where a society has enough resources and those resources are currently distributed so that no one has to work unless they want to, and except for the most extreme luxuries, everyone can have/do whatever they want." Basically, think Star Trek, everyone living it up in Holodecks, getting all their things from matter replicators, and they have holograms doing the dirty work. Equestria is nowhere near Stark Trek standards.
If ponies can't have things they want with the resources they have, unless we are talking about a few extreme marginal cases, the society is not post-scarcity. You do have a very good point that different Equestrian cities seem to exist in different technological eras, and in theory a voluntary scarcity society, where ponies feel enormous social pressure to earn money to remain functional within the society, could exist within a larger post-scarcity society. Basically the ponies caring about money would be like the Amish, and we've already seen that Pinkie's family is basically Amish.
But Manehatten is the most technologically sophisticated society we've seen, and Canterlot is possibly the most magically sophisticated, and we've seen hard-working servant classes in both cities, who appear to be doing it for the bits, not some innate love of carrying others bags or washing windows or pulling cabs.
And yeah, the hip is a major sticking point, apparently prosthetic hips are not covered by the Equestrian healthcare services. Based on the fairly advanced medical technology we've seen in the Ponyville Hospital, it seems pretty likely they would have prosthetic hips that can be paid for, and I doubt Applejack would have gone to all this work without looking into any kind of options that could make her grandmother more comfortable. The idea that ponies have to scrape up bits to pay griffons for surgery is definitely an intriguing idea, like soviet countries maintaining a balance of trade with the west, but if you have to pay dearly to outside capitalists for critical services like that, again you are not living in a post-scarcity society.
You zoomed in to focus on specifically if Ponyville is post-scarcity, citing Pinkie's parties as an example where no money seems to change hands, and you do have a strong case there. All those cakes, punch and streamers showed up in Twilight's library, I doubt Twilight paid for them. I would dispute the case of Pinkie on several levels though: 1)Pinkie and her party magic are inherently hard to interpret, she's the outlier in pretty much any kind of classification. You could cite Pinkie as evidence that earth ponies teleport, for example. Based on the work of a lot of several great authors on this site, the leading theory is that Pinkie (and Cheese, and Party Favor) have some sort of powerful party magic that can conjure food and decorations (and somehow the food stays permanent after eaten, so ponies don't get sick when it disappears, increasing the total mass of the planet, physics really breaks down here). That's why they can pull tanks and cannons and hippos out of nowhere.
2) I would argue that Pinkie's day job as a baker pays for her party supplies. 75% of the cost of her supplies would probably be bakery ingredients, and I feel it is an unlikely coincidence that Pinkie works and lives in a bakery, where she could get those ingredients wholesale and probably make everything herself on her own time using the bakery's ovens. She still has to buy streamers and balloons, etc, but it is do-able.
3) Pinkie may charge ponies for some parties, and use her earnings to pay for other parties. For example, remember Diamond Tiara singing about how her father commissioned Pinkie to plan her cutecenera? (Diamond Tiara, who cruelly forces her butler to do acrobatics on arthritic hips, you know Filthy Rich must pay Alfred a lot to put up with his daughter). I think Pinkie was probably paid for that. I think it's likely that Pinkie charges for big events for more-distant "friends" and uses the proceeds to pay for new-pony parties, parties for her pet alligator, etc.
Realistically, I suspect elements of all three are true, though I think Pinkie only "conjures" party supplies on a whim, and when she plans events she actually buys streamers, raw ingredients for cake, etc. Here's a thought: Pinkie loves doing almost everything, including working in the bakery. But her greatest passion is throwing parties. Why does she work a retail job that is tangentially but not directly related to her cutie mark, instead of planning parties all day? If she chose her audiences carefully (including foals, the elderly in the retirement home, etc.) I bet she could throw 2-3 parties a day every single day and still always get guests. My guess is she need the bits, and the roof over her head, so works in the bakery and abuses the hell out of her employee discount.
And if you are open to the comics, have you read the one with Mayor Mare yet? Spoiler: She introduces Applejack to the business council, where they argue angrily about government taxes, and Applejack comes up with a scheme to have a tax holiday that will drive budget-conscious tourists to shop in Ponyville. Post-scarcity economies do not have taxes.
I could get into Spike reluctantly forced to spend his gems on goods and services for the pets he is watching, instead of keeping them for a gemcake, but that would drag this on even longer.
On population density, if you are counting tourists in Time Square, you have to count the Mane 6 and Spike, so that is like 18 people in Manehatten, versus 20-25 people in Manhatten. I agree that the real version is more crowded, Manhatten has like 2 million people in it on any given day, I would guess around 1 million for Manehatten, and that would represent all of New York City. Again, I think we both agree that Equestria is sparsly populated, we're just not sure on the numbers. I say Canadian density, so like 30-40 million.
On cutie marks, you have a good point, I honestly flipped back and forth between practice and destiny on Twilight. The 6 star cutie mark appeared on the Crystal Tree (who I think is the ultimate villain of Equestria, but that is another argument), foretelling the destiny of the Element of Magic/Friendship/Whatever, and future Princess. I suspect Twilight Sparkle was always destined to get that cutie mark.
While you make a point that, given how often we have seen other creatures mess around with cutie marks, it is possible Celestia could change them, that is one of those things that would have a lot of impact. If Celestia could change cutie marks, and she is a benevolent monarch, wouldn't she do it for ponies like Troubleshoes who are genuinely unhappy with their mark? But Troubleshoes never even thinks to ask her. More importantly, Sunset Shimmer. Wouldn't Celestia have given the 6 pointed star to Sunset as soon as Sunny became her student?
I think your theory about Twilight and Shining Armor's cutie marks being guided pretty firmly by fate is the right one.
By the way, thanks for the engaging discussion! I really want to here how you are defining post-scarcity, and how it is different from a robust welfare state. I suspect you'll see this in the morning, so good morning!
Makes me wonder what Sunset thinks about griffins.
Ironically, Sunset has a point, why the hell WOULDN'T Trixie logically protest this kind of thinking? It feels OOC. (Hero Antagonist actually had Trixie resist Glimmer's brainwashing when she visited our town.)
Of course, Luna's entire message about Cutie Marks is that they embody the self, they do not decide the self.
Once a pony has gotten their mark then everyp... everyone supports him or her in doing whatever they want to do because it is obvious that is what will make them happy.
And Trixie's life went to hell after her tall tale made a couple of little boys lead a giant monster to a town, and she couldn't even do a show anywhere.
From the little we do know, I reckon that magic has more to do with Equestria’s peaceful nature than anything else.”
Ironic considering Equestria is home to a forest of death.
rather pessimistic idea that all people are inherently evil.”
All of us have the animal brain in there somewhere.
Ironically, a pony like Ditzy would be the first to be drawn in by Sunset's promises of an equal world.
She even had Mr. Turner coming out of the phone box in the lobby to tell Sunset Shimmer he knew she was the one person who could change Ms. Glimmer’s mind.
Why do I get the feeling that part is actually true?
Why do I imagine it's this realization that helps Sunset earn her wings?
5985826 Trixie's life did not go to hell because of the Ursa, that is only how she interpreted it. In the comics we see that it is possible for her to be successful even after the Alicorn amulet incident.
5985158 I still think your underestimating New York City... the comparison photo I used originally was one that seems like a very slow day in the city... however we actually know more about what is happening in Manehatten at the time of their visit... it is fashion week!
I did a little more searching and found this picture that seems to have been taken during Fashion week in NYC
media.meltyfashion.fr/article-1287845-ajust_930/times-square-en-plein-coeur-de-new-york.jpg
Alright give me a moment to count the people...... wait... no I think that maybe its your turn to count... go ahead... count them...
And from my experiences in NYC that is actually not very crowded!
Post Scarcity... Really its something I am still trying to understand and figure out. I agree that neither the first world or Equestria are Post Scarcity in the traditional meaning of the word. However, as you mentioned that many place do have something approaching that idea. Here I guess the best example of a Post Scarcity society that still seems to operate on a capitalist level would be from the book Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. In the book the world is majorly technologically advanced and you can make anything that you can design (or pick form a catalog), even people in the lowest class have access to the "compilers" (cough cough 3D printers cough). Although, this is not a utopian world the ability to create anything (given the cash to pay for the raw elements that are shipped through tubes when the compiler is used), creates a society that no longer has a scarcity of things... I think that the society that I am describing is less of a pure Post Scarcity one, and more of a selective Scarcelessness society.
In Diamond Age, and increasingly in many countries in modern times, there seems to be scarcelessness of 'things'. However, as pointed out with many examples in Equestria they do not have the scarcelessness of things. But that is where we go back to Cutie Marks, in my opinion Cutie Marks create scarcelessness of Opportunity. Very much like the upper middle (and to some extent the lower middle) class there is not really anything stopping you from pursuing a career of your choice, and even if you don't have the cash on hand to get started you can always get someone to give you money as long as you are proven trust worthy.
). Spoiler: After meeting Rarity and falling in love, Hayseed Turnip Truck has decided to move to Canterlot and start his own business so that he can be the type of pony Rarity likes, which he achieves through hard work (and then is shot down by the jerk that is spike).
As far as service class ponies go I think I have to agree that it proves that money is necessary, however, I don't think most of them are unhappy... a great example is Hayseed Turnip Truck who we see washing window in Canterlot even though he is from Ponyville... this is where we must go to the comics (yes I have read the comics, and the mayor mare one.... I just forgot about the taxes bit
Lets get back to grannies hip... in the first and second episodes of MLP we see that granny is an old woman who makes a squeaking sound every time she every time she walks around... but this is very different from the granny we see in later episodes, running around during zap apple season and jumping from great heights ect... what could that means... wait could it be? could it really be? Granny got the hip replacement after all, even if Applejack made no money at the gala she still was able to get granny a new hip..... (sorry for the spoiler tag, it just seemed more fun this way)
(PS spike and rarity using gems to buys things just pushes to true meaninglessness of money... its like going into a shop and and saying "here take this random chunk of gold (that would can't tell the true value of) and give me one of those things.")
I have a question about Sunset Shimmer... why does everyone think that she was supposed to be the barer of the elements of "magic"? All we know was that she was a former student of Celestia and that she shunned the same ponies that Twilight shuns in the first episode..... wait what?!?!? How old are Moon dancer, Minuette, Lemon Hearts, Lyra, and Twinkleshine? Sunset and these ponies are the same in the comic, but we see twilight as a foal in the background... why are they still Twilight's classmates and why haven't they only aged the same as Twilight?!!?!! (I think there is more going on with Celestia's princess picking process then meets the eye!)
Anyway I don't think Sunset was even meant to use the elements, I think that if she was meant to become a princess it would be for a different reason... and for that matter, I don't think Twilight became a princess because of she is the bearer of the element of "leadership" (?) but in addition to it.
What do you think? Does the whole selective scarelessness thing fit the differences we have been talking about?
5987378 I think the way you are defining scarecelessness makes a lot of sense, and now that I have read your definition I think our views on Equestria are a lot closer than I thought before. I have read Diamond Age, and it does give us an intriguing look at how 3D Printing will change the world when only services are scarce and goods are almost unlimited (Snow Crash was better though). I think your argument now is that Equestria is not exactly a post-scarcity Star Trek society, there are still material limits, but it is like an idealized version of the American Dream, where anyone can pursue any career they want and become successful with a lot of hard work and the right cutie mark.
I think I pretty much agree with that statement, either big-hearted Celestia would have a generous government program to subsidize education, training and small business start-up loans, or ponies would naturally help out on their own, since it is seen as a community duty to support ponies in utilizing their cutie marks. (It's part of why I assume their is some big university that specializes in engineering and agriculture in Manehatten, aimed at earth ponies, to balance out the school of gifted unicorns and flight school). Their may be limits on things like earth ponies working in the weather department, but those are extreme cases, and in any case cutie marks would almost never show up for those.
You pointed out that even if blue-collar service ponies need to work jobs to make ends meet, they are still pretty happy and fulfilled, and you know what? I think you'er right there as well. My guess is that in general, blue-collar ponies are ponies who don't have cutie marks in their profession, but their cutie mark reflects their passion for a hobby that they practice in their spare time, and find fulfillment in. For your blue collar example, you used Hayseed Turnip Truck, whose cutie mark is trio of turnips. I would speculate that outside his Canterlot apartment, he has a big window garden of turnip plants, and even if window gardens are not normally allowed, the landlord would let it slide, because turnips are his special talent. Every day when he comes home from washing windows, he tends his turnips, and as they mature (which they do at like ten times normal speed because of Hayseed's earth magic) he uses them to make a variety of turnip dishes that he shares with his friends and neighbors. They may feel somewhat obligated to try his dishes, because that's part of helping a pony express their special talent, but I also bet his turnip soup and casserole etc are really delicious, because special talent. So even if he never gets rich and wins Rarity's heart, I still feel Hayseed would feel happy with his life, and that he had done justice to his special talent, even if he never made money off it.
As for granny's hip, I agree she got the replacement after all, there's no way she could have done all that stuff in the Aqua-pony episode otherwise. But remember that money Applejack was hoping for was to buy like 3 things, and also that Applejack is not exactly a math genius, it seems pretty clear to me that Big Mac does the books on that farm. It's possible there is a government health care program that bought granny the hip, or Celestia felt sorry for her motivations towards Applejack and guilty over what she owed Applejack, so she sprang for the hip personally, or the Apples were able to afford it with a successful cider season and all those pie runs to distant towns, and Applejack had just not realized they could raise the money that way.
Gems seemed to be used as an alternative currency, it's not very efficient, but many countries in many times have used multiple currencies.
As for Sunset Shimmer, depends on what you mean by "supposed." If you mean "destined by fate to be the Element of Magic," I think you're right, that was never her destiny. I think Sunset is living her destiny right now, as some sort of guardian/phoenixcorn protector of EqG world. But clearly Celestia was planning to use a personal student to train the Element of Magic, she just got antsy and tried to force destiny by picking a kid and telling them they were the chosen one. As for the other ponies, they are probably about ten years older than Twilight, just like Sunset, but I figure Celestia's school functions as middle school/high school/college, so kids come in there at like 11 and can stay until their early 30s. Twilight is classmates with Moondancer because she probably skipped like 2 grades for every grade she's in, even if she was only 20, she was probably in a PhD class with Moondancer.
Twilight became a Princess via the Elements, but it wasn't really necessary, that was Celestia being pretty heavy-hooved.
5988414 Yes I do like Snow Crash much better. I have made the comparison between Star Trek and 3D printers before, as replicators use laser (or something) to create things. Obviously there is more to it as 3D printers need the specific materials used, but this is where a new technology is needed: Matter Manipulation. The ability to take any mass and turn it into any other equal mass is really what makes the replicators a function of post scarcity.
Even with possible age differences I think its a little odd that some of those ponies who are both trying to get Sunset Shimmer to come hang out and get Twilight to come to Moondancer's birthday start showing up in ponyville son after Twilight arrives, in fact i would say there is a possibility that the reason no one reacts to Twilight calling everypony crazy is because Lyra, Lemon Hearts, Minuette and Twinkleshine cast some sort of silence spell. They are all standing right next to her when the lights turn on (actually Lyra is sort of in three places at once... maybe part of an illusion to keep Twilight from insulting anypony). Mind you i know that this is a pilot and there are plenty of reused and copypasted background ponies, but this is the joy on Fannon. Also its reasonable that those four ponies came to see the summer sun celebration (where is moondancer?), but there is no reason that they don't go back to school after... maybe lyra fell in love, and maybe there are reasons for all the others to graduate and decided that they want to make appearances in ponyville, but I think its more fun imagine that they are all in fact employed as a secret squad of highly trained unicorns that make sure Twilight is on the right track and do clean up afterward.
I don't have time at the moment to write that fanfic (as between classes and the other ones im working on I dont have time) but if no one else has already written it then someone should take the idea and run with it!
By the way Heyseed does become a rich successful business pony running a contractor company in Canterlot, also his cutie mark could mean that his special talent is keeping a turnip farm in working order (doing repairs) and decides to take that talent and turn it into repairing other pony's buildings (Abstract cutie mark, similar to Applejack's or Big Mac's).
5989876 3D Printers are just the start, and as we develop flexible designs and a variety of different printing materials, ever more manufacturing can be turned over to them. Of course, replicators are actually changing the material at the atomic level, that's fission and fusion on command, so that's still a sci-fi technology, but with clever combination of materials we can get suprisingly close. (Have you ever read Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman? It features devices that are half-way between 3D printers and replicators, and it shows a semi-post scarcity society that results.)
You do have a point about those unicorns. In the Xenophilia series, Lyra in particular is a secret guard who was initially sent to Ponyville to watch Twilight Sparkle. I agree part of the fun of fanon is fitting things like background re-use of ponies into the world! I don't know if Celestia would task them with keeping Twilight on track as Princess, but I could see her, or even Shining Armor, assigning them as discrete body guards that Twilight doesn't even know about. Of course, another reason so many of them show up in Ponyville is, Ponyville is basically the only suburb of Canterlot, I think the reason you see the occasional wealthy pony in Ponyville and fancy businesses that cater to them is, some ponies with jobs in Canterlot are moving to Ponyville and taking the train to work each day. Of course, it's probably a 2-hour train ride, but you get much cheaper rents, and a nice small town atmosphere to live in. Maybe Lyra, Moondancer and others are starving students moving out to Ponyville to save rent money, and gentrifying Ponyville in the process.
You're right about Hayseed, though I forget which comic it was. I was using him as an example though, to show that even if a pony has a very literal cutie mark, and their job has nothing to do with their special talent, they can still find happiness and use their special talent through their hobbies and passions. Do you think the version of Hayseed I described sounds happy?
You mentioned in an earlier post how Flim and Flam don't fear jail, because prison isn't a thing outside of small frontier towns (excepting powerful demons locked in Tartarus). I agree completely, you'll notice that jail Troubleshoes was in was really just a holding cell. I don't think ponies believe in prison at all, they are tremendously forgiving of even felonies committed, provided the criminal shows sincere repentance. That said, for serious criminals, I believe they get reformation spells cast on them, either to change their attitude, or just to function as geas to keep them within the law. I've shared this opinion before, and others have found it horrible, but given the huge amount of mind control magic we see on the show, and how widely available it is, I think mind control is seen as generally wrong and occasionally a necessary evil, kind of the way we see taking people away from their families and communities and locking them up for years at a time. Ponies would be unable to practice their special talents in prison, or be part of their communities, and I believe most Equestrians would find that idea as horrifying as we find the idea of brainwashing or mind control to be.
5990360 Forever Peace I will have to look in to getting a copy, sound like my type of book. Unicorn Secret service does sort mesh more with the world, but I like the idea that when a unicorn is powerful, but for one reason or another wont make princess they get moved into a division that test other unicorns potential.
Hayseed's story is told at the end of How Rarity got her groovy back, which is one of my favorite micro comic stories.
The mind control thing is interesting, however there are varying degrees of "mind control" and most people only think about it in the most radical way. I think that the type of reform spell you talk about, it going to be most similar to a house arrest tracking band, or possibly as radical as the chip inserted in to Spike's brain in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Makes him unable to harm humans, and there fore he must reform and figure out how to live like that.
Looking back over our conversation, it strikes me that there is a recent MLP quote that could represent a non-fans reaction to it.
"Just a moment ago you were disagreeing, and not it sounds like your agreeing... Well you had such differing opinions and cutie marks... I'm sorry. I'm just having a hard time understanding."
Eh.... its not perfect, but still amusing.
5991591 Interesting idea, Celestia has a secret princess-testing service. And yeah, simplest "reform" spell is just a binding or geas like Spike's tracking chip. I could see Equestria figuring if they just allow criminals to interact with others but prevent them from harming others, eventually friendship and harmony will fix their attitudes over time.
I would say neither of us really went from disagreeing on our ideas to agreeing on them, more that as we discussed them in more detail, particularly areas like the economy of Equestria, we realized our views were a lot closer all along than we previously realized, we were just starting from different points of terminology. I've often found on this site at least, if you discuss things with people long enough, you usually find you agree with them on a lot of things. The trick is not everyone has the patience or temper to find out.
5991658 Well, for many people with out the practiced patience, our conversation on minor points might feel like a disagreement. Especially since it spanned over a longish time. One of the things I am currently trying to get better at is the ability to define my terms as soon as possible so that I don't run into the confusion that can come from it.
It is very nice to have a place where I can bounce these ideas off of other Bronies instead of trying to hide their origin from my classmates (They all know I'm a Brony, but they don't necessarily want to listen the minute they realize I'm talking about MLP).
5991689 Same here, discussing canon is my favorite part of commenting.
This is a beautiful story. Well done. The plot was well told, the emotion was heartfelt, and the writing itself was marvellous. There were also several little jokes in there that I liked. I commend you dear sir or Madam. My only regret is that one is not able to like something more than once.
6106156 Glad to hear it! More stories, both like this and totally unlike this will be coming over the summer... just have to finish a bunch of papers.
I actually preferred the picture of human Starlight Glimmer, caught the eye more.
6390753 I never was able to find a satisfactory human Starlight Glimmer drawing... Especially one where she is actually an adult. There was one artist I tried to contact for permission to use their art, but never got a response.
And now we need Sunset to read Brave New World. Imagine, a world where every person has his place, a job that makes him happy, just like ponies and their Cutie Marks. But one day...what if a person wanted to do...something different?
I absolutely loved this story. It was thought provoking and even made me question how I see society. I really liked how the characters were conveyed.
6499931 Thanks, I'm hoping to have another story out in the next few months but I haven't really been hit by the writing bug the way that I was with this story. On the other hand I have been working on a new project that I think could be really good for the Brony community.
You know, the humans of Equestria Girls have the exact same magic talents as their counterparts. Vinyl can create impossibly advanced sound systems, Twilight can do inexplicable things with magic, Pinkie could defy the laws of physics for laughs before she ever met Princess Twilight, Fluttershy could control animals and so forth. It isn't just the six who have magic...which why Starswirl was wrong about the sirens being powerless there. He looked at a world where magic wasn't obvious and concluded that it was a world where magic didn't exist.
Very nice. You took a short story that meant a great deal to me when I was in grade school, and then re-examined its debate in more modern settings with EG characters.
It's not easy to debate with a teacher in high school, and harder even to do so while keeping your cool. My hat's off to Sunset for ultimately handling herself like a lady under such duress, and to you for bringing back good memories so well.
I was also reminded of the scene in A Wrinkle in Time, where Meg is valiantly facing down the dehumanizing IT, arguing that being "identical" is not the same as being "equal." (And on the off chance that you have not read AWiT, may I recommend it? I think you would enjoy it.)
And, at the end, Ms. Glimmer having the intellectual strength necessary to actually consider another viewpoint was also nicely done. You showed the inner strength of several characters elegantly. Thank you.
Seriously, I keep coming back to this story. Faved.
Actually, humans are inherently evil. Most people will tend to take the evil route when given a chance.
I have literally heard no leftists ever claim to want this level of Egalitarianism in this story, its like watching Ingsoc incarnate.