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Twilight Sparkle has some simple questions to ask. "Why do people do what they do? Why do they do good? Why do they do bad?" Well, she intends to find the answer, and this means speaking to every pony, Changeling, monster, hero and villain she can.
A deep examination of philosophical themes, from a pony perspective. Word of warning: I'm writing this to be thoughtful and analytical of big issues. There's not really many easy answers, and I encourage active debate and questioning.
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Philosophical ponies. What's not to like?
5865359
Indeed!
5865576
Thank you kindly! I'll do the best I can.
Beyond acknowledging that a balance must be reached, there Isn't really much to say or ponder. Hopefully in the future you could present conflicting ideologies so there is something to think about. Not a criticism definitely, mearly a wish.
5869051
Believe me, I will. Probably when I get to Discord and how he'll want to make the argument what he stands for is necessary.
5896946
Well, Chrysalis thinks similarity to both Austen and Calvin. John Calvin automatically assumed too much of the world, including who was saved and who wasn't, and you were, in his mind, meant to listen to the people who were so OBVIOUSLY chosen by God. Because they'd be best in all the right ways. And she feels she's naturally best. Her own talents prove it.
But her reasoning isn't perfect. And there's no surprise, she IS egotistical. Of course she would want to think she deserves to rule. Everyone's views in the story are from their side but they aren't omniscient. So they're gonna have sine flaws. And I encourage discussion of them!
Enjoy your cookie!
6040435
A mixture, actually. Himself an the ideology of "Pantheism".
Uh huh...
Perhaps, indeed, they don't. But perhaps they do. One doesn't always know.
Reasonable to an extent.
Typos:
How much of it had been
hereherUnderlined iwll should be will. Some of the other underlines extend past the words.
Anywho, this is well-written and inspired. Needs more views. I guess most bronies aren't very scholarly.
Here's a conundrum, one only really possible to ponder in the context of ponies.
You are a foal, living as most normal foals do. One day, you're reading a comic book, and are introduced to the Mane-iac (or some less stupid equivalent). After reading some more, you think to yourself "wow, this character is awesome!" Then, suddenly, *BAM*. A Cutie Mark in supervillainy appears on your flank. What do you do? Do you ignore it, knowing that such a life would be morally wrong? Or do you go ahead and embrace your destiny, knowing that following such a path will lead to greater personal happiness?
6151208
Therein IS a considerable puzzle. Ideally, a cutie mark should be more of a guide as to what, overall, you'd be best at doing. But the mark really is more an acknowledgment about something that was true of you all along. After all, when the Cutie Marks got switched about in the Finale of the last season, their talents weren't really traded. They were awful at the new things their mark was telling them to do. So I don't think the mark really is like a kind of brainwashing, you HAVE to do this sort of thing. If you got a mark for supervillainy, it's probably because you were an awful person deep down and this is just solidifying it.
I'm going to have to disagree with Celestia here, heavily.
Ponies are never going to stop expecting someone else to step up for them, even in a ridiculous, post-apocalyptic 'What-If?' scenario, all but the most cynical of people are going to hold out hope for a savior, because that's just the way people are. This exists for many reasons, but one of the major things I can of is the Bystander Effect. It's not our problem, so we don't try and deal with it. Now, why is it that people think that some things aren't their problem? The answer, if you think about it, is pretty obvious:
1. Is the problem happening to them, or someone they know directly?
2. Is the problem something they have previous experience with?
3. Are they qualified to handle the problem?
4. Is there a significant risk involved in handling the problem?
5. Is there a significant risk of making said problem worse by trying to handle it?
If the answer to all of the above questions becomes increasingly negative, why would you even bother? You don't ask a farmer to make a citizen's arrest, and you don't ask a baker to balance the national budget. The whole point of having a society in the first place is that there are people whose very livelihood depends upon the fulfillment of a specific task for which they have been extensively trained. You're supposed to be able to trust that a farmer can provide food, that a police officer can stop crime, and that a government can manage itself. There aren't enough hours in the day, months in the year, or years in a life to possibly learn to tackle everything with even the bare minimum of competency. Therefore I find Celestia's expectations to be terribly unrealistic.
When facing a predator that you cannot fight, cannot escape, and cannot stop, playing dead and attempting to escape notice is not just the smart choice, it's the correct one. Anypony that tried to fight back against Tirek could very easily have been brutally murdered by the malicious centaur, simply for have the temerity to engage him in the first place. Then they would be dead, Tirek would have their magic, and absolutely nothing would have changed for the better. Even if it had been a group, the result would have likely been the same.
By Celestia's own logic the existence of a dedicated police force or a standing army robs ponies of the experience of fighting for their lives against hardened criminals and dangerous monsters.
Honestly, her only true recourse is through re-education, and perhaps the establishment of a police-state... which would have it's own issues, as people trained to fight tend to see violence as an immediate and appropriate solution in many situations an untrained civilian would not.
To be blunt, I don't believe for a second that having people be good at solving problems presents a problem for other people in the same field. There's always something to do, always work to be done, and no one can be in every place at once. And even if you could, how on Earth would you stay sane? Is there the risk of having some people be overlooked? Sure, but does that mean that exceptional people should settle for mediocrity so that no one's feelings are hurt? If Luna really wanted to step out of her sister's shadow, she could have, oh, I don't know, actually stepped out of her sister's shadow for once.
Surely there existed some far-flung group of sapient beings in dire need of savior? Surely, Luna's talents could have been applied somewhere? But no, she tried to out-Celestia Celestia and became upset when it didn't work. Oh sure, I'm massively over-simplifying the problem, but I'm trying to make a point. Nobody but Luna thought she had to compete with Celestia, and look at how well that turned out. If you let yourself be influenced by thoughts of minimizing your impact, you'll wind up never doing anything. Alas, the sword of ennui cuts both ways.
6215595
You mean like the Kitty Genovese story? But that's an example of the Bystander Effect being disproven because people DID call the police. So it isn't really as common as one might think. And to be fair, look at our own society. Getting involved whatsoever in social change was rare before. Now it's becoming something of a norm, but why? Because people are now taking far bigger notice of things they didn't have time to notice. When people have time to themselves, they've time to think and observe the world around them. More time inventing, less time worrying over where your next meal comes from. And from this, comes slow but eventual progress, and further involvement. All of human history is a slow but continuous rise in civility. After all, we used to say it was reasonable to burn people alive just for being gay, or to stone a black man just for touching a white woman. We've made considerable progress since. And in my own heart, I think the ponies can too. After all, look at how they were able to forgive Luna even after everything that happened.
Like who? The country is kind of cut-off from many other nations like the Yaks and the Griffons, so I'm not entirely sure that's applicable. And keep in mind, when this happened, it was hundreds of years ago and when she was much younger. So youthful stupidity factored in somewhat.
That I wholeheartedly agree with, which is why a society should always seek to keep improving. The issue is "what counts as improving" though. What might be improved scenarios for many could be horrors for others.
6215612
Which has no bearing on my statement, which is that people who are unqualified to solve a problem often avoid attempting to solve said problem out of a fear of making it worse.
I agree, and I find said development heartening whenever I see new evidence of it.
You have a point, perhaps then the problem was a lack of external support? In either case, it was a perfect example of a problem that could have been readily solved if both sides of the equation had bothered to actually do something about it. Then again, nobody's perfect, and we all make stupid mistakes at least some of time, so perhaps that particular scenario was unavoidable.
6215628
Most likely unavoidable. But many scenarios in fiction often could have been avoided if there were things like psychologists or the like around. But to be fair, it IS a primarily fantasy-setting, that kind of professional help wouldn't be there for Luna. Not to mention it's shown in the comics the creature that turns her is a monstrous being designed to corrupt, it could have very easily kept her from trying to just talk it out with Celestia by playing off her pain and getting her to believe she couldn't trust her sister at all. Whispering in her ear "She won't help you, she's only holding you back..."
6216212
That's reasonable to feel. Though I'll definitely be returning to him. It can be hard to write for a character who only had one appearance in the show (so far) and only one comic devoted to him, so I worked with it as best I could to discuss the ideas of fate and control, though I love talking about such themes, especially in MLP so much, I'm definitely coming back.
Plus Sombra's my favorite villain of them all. You'll be seeing him again.
can't wait for next chapter.
Wait, how'd the Sirens get there?
6223900
Neither can I! Discord will be a delight to write for.
6223988
Trust me, I'll elaborate. After all, Sombra ended up here too and he WAS supposed to be dead.
not bad at all.
6265187
Well, I try. (Shrugs)
Meh I've done my time in philosophy and all I can say is that everyone can look out for themselves and the world will still somehow keep turning and doing what it does all you need to remember is it only take one person to start a fire.
I shall just leave this here if free will doesn't exist then everything is, had been, and will be With no change.
Not this one is interesting good and evil is a fun topic so is looking in the middle ground.
Hedonism is like playing Russian roulette while suicidal the rush and kick it gives you are fine until the pay off happens.
Hmm religion is like a car sometimes it's safe sometimes it's not but even while dangerous it still has it's uses.
6488809
We didn't start the fire! It was always burnin' since the world's been turnin'! XD
6488847
Indeed.
6490072 See you know we didn't but some people still like to take credit for it burning. I blame Nixon.
6495008
"That is actually one thing I don't get. If I want something, I don't do just about everything just to get it, I do just enough to get it. The amount of work necessary, the energy that must be expended… It's just so much effort in relation to what I want. After a certain point, having power seems to only serve in gathering more power. It seems absolutely circular." That's a good point. But a lot of evil is in an of itself, circular. And thus, self-defeating. Circular logic is often the sign of someone who doesn't really know they have a leg to stand on, or is ignorant of the real issues. And I've always viewed villain logic as very circular, especially when they consider power itself to be a means and an end.
"I do believe that people do good because they are good, but I believe it to be an intrinsic attribute of people. They have a conscious. They are born with that and they accrue it due to how they are raised. It's a part of who they are. I see no reason to attribute it to something external and I even believe that doing so has the danger of making you arrogant and self-righteous." You could be right, but it's got historical precedent when it comes to philosophy. It's called "The Law of Human Nature" and it really is fascinating.
6495142
"I slightly resent this misrepresentation of atheism. I've been raised an atheist and I never missed any kind of god in my life". Misrepresentation? How so? I thought I had covered both people who don't subscribe to any kind of religious power for legit reasons, and those who subscribe to it for selfish, or nonsensical reasons. How can you 'misrepresent' something that is about just one thing: not believing in any kind of religious power?
Now, granted, I can understand your concern of "Twilight assumes religiosity as a default". But this is because she's a literal Element User, and the Elements of Harmony are real and she's seen them in action. So to her, it IS the default. At least, for her kind. And to not believe in Harmony's powers, it makes no sense. Which is how many genuine believers feel, that religion is the default and there has to be a special reason why people wouldn't believe. Discord is different because as a dimension hopper who's seen and done nearly everything, he doesn't put stock in any kind of real religious figure since he views all choice as meaningless, and the best way to go day to day is just embracing what you have. So his reason for not putting stock in any God is kind of understandable and reasonable to a degree.
"Also calling Christianity more philosophically developed than Buddhism seems mighty strange when Christian philosophers orbited around Aristoteles and Platon for hundreds of years without daring to introduce any new concepts. They kind of worshiped what we today call "book smarts"." Doesn't every religion state that being wise or knowledgable as a virtue, though?
"I don't see Twilight's problem here. (well, of course I do, but I don't see her argument. Is she saying that believing that people seek for some higher power to give them meaning is somehow inconsistent with exploiting that tendency?" Yes. Usually it means you yourself don't believe it. You're just abusing other people's belief in something. That, and it's hypocritical for them to say "Oh, the idea of any kind of higher power that people could aspire to be like is dumb" when they themselves want to be a higher power. They are, in essence, knocking the very thing they're always trying to be.
6495270
"
Ahh, I see. But this story's still just starting, I've not yet finished and there's other people Twilight will talk to. So don't worry, I don't want to demean or demonize atheists.
Actually, Christianity didn't do that. It carried the torch of wisdom and knowledge through the Dark Ages when others ignored scientific discovery and kept making those discoveries on it's own, like with the Jesuits, who did extensive Earthquake research, or Gregor Mendel, who laid the foundations for DNA. You're kind of confusing the worst parts of what strict Catholicism did with Christianity as a whole. And let's be fair. It's no more honest for me to judge atheism by its worst or harshest elements than it is for you to judge Christianity by its. Should I blame Karl Marx for everything wrong done in Communism's name?
You don't find it hypocritical to say higher powers are stupid when you yourself try to become a higher power? I'm sorry, but that confuses me.
6495456
Hmm. Good point. Though to the atheist question, I kind of imagined the dragons to be atheists because of how they approach philosophy with the "each culture chooses what works best for them and it's not really fair to judge them all by the same measuring stick" ideology they possess. Or perhaps not atheists so much as agnostics, rather. Maybe because they killed their previous Gods and if a real one does exist and actually did show up they might believe, but since they kinda killed off their last ones, they doubt any real Gods exist and simply view the Elements as just super powerful magical items.
6495507
Yes, I can imagine they'd believe heavily in the right to choose their own destiny and that nothing controls them, though they respect other people's own beliefs if it works for them.
And I'm not surprised you agree with Discord, his take on things was my favorite part to write. I thought it fit very well with his character. :)
6498435
In it's primordial state...hmm.
Well, isn't ANYTHING in a "primordial state" easy to understand? I mean, the idea behind, say, comics or stories, is to take big ideas and try to simplify them down in a fashion so as to be better understood by a lot of people. The Hero's Journey can be complicated if it's, say, presented in a Joseph Campbell-esque essay, but not so hard to get when it comes across in something like Star Wars.
6499046
"The point is, "free will" is a really strange problem. Either it follows rules, it is arbitrary or it is some stochastic mixture of the two. I see no alternative. It doesn't help to move different rules into different systems, which is usually the first thing people do when confronted with the problem – they move the rules of free will away from the rules that make up reality. Most afterwards recognize that this doesn't change anything about the problem." I see...
"Dismissing the term seems like chickening out, so I tried to understand what people meant when they talk about "free will" and it turns out it's about the decisions they make they don't understand the reasons for. For me, free will is the part of our decisions we don't understand." Hmm. Okay, you could argue that. Though I would think that free will would imply we're making decisions and we DO understand them and think we're controlling the fact we make them.
"To go back to that "easily understood" part: What happened here is that some dwarves regressed in their mental capacity to how they were first made by their god (just as automatons to mine and protect valuable minerals), so Mister Sigil's point is that, yes, from the point of view who understands why the dwarves are acting like they are acting now, they don't have free will. The "primordeal state" of the dwarven mind is how they were made. Regressing to that state robs them of their free will." Ahhhh, I see. But are they AWARE that they've regressed to that state? Because if they're aware, then doesn't self-awareness imply a certain amount of free will? And at what point does it become free will? I mean, heavy inclination to do something isn't equivalent to brainwashing.
Nice I robot reference.
7308060
I do like including little easter eggs like that. ;)
I think I've found one of my new favorite stories on this site.