Symptom of a Larger Problem, Really
Twilight?
Twilight Sparkle, can that really be you? Imagine, meeting you, here of all--
Oh.
Oh, my poor dear girl. That's really quite a wicked-looking blade sticking out of you. Eight inches, at least. And -- ooh, look at that saw-tooth work along the edge, there. That can't have been pleasant at all.
Afterlife? Oh, no no no no my dear. The edges may be fuzzy, the light may be fading, but you’re not there yet. I had that joke with another man, in another place, a very long time ago. You? Well, I’m not so sure what we can do for you.
You see, you're just barely clinging on to life right now. And, in a good deal of pain, from the sound of it. You simply must tell me sometime how somepony screams with that many punctured lungs. But where was I? Yes, of course, 'imminent demise'.
And it is imminent, you realise. None of your little friends were around, just you and--
Heh. Well, no, I don't suppose you want to be hearing her name right about now, do you?
What's that? You'll have to speak a bit louder, dear, I never did get 'round to learning Gurgle.
Help? Haha! Oh, oh dear me. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound callous. I just-- I do believe that's the first time you've ever actually asked. Rather amazing what a situation like this can produce in a pony, isn't it? The strongest will, reduced to begging, the staunchest foe suddenly looking the friend -- past sins forgivable so long as you get a reprieve?
Tell you what: I know this probably doesn't seem like the best moment for a heart-to-heart, but, to be perfectly frank, you don't seem to be going anywhere, so why don't we just sit down and have ourselves a little chat, hmm? It’s been far too long, and there are some things we need to discuss. Oh, don't bother getting a chair, I'll manage. You just lie there and . . . try not to bleed out before we've finished.
You’re surprised. Cold comfort, I know -- me, here. Not your goddesses, nor your friends, parents . . . just little old me, floating here on the fringe as you fade. Stings, doesn’t it? No comforting words, no warm arms to hold you, no soft voice to sing you to sleep.
I can see the hurt in your eyes, you know. You really never saw this coming. All that time, all those countless chance encounters, and you never once considered . . . ? Hmph.
It’s just funny to me, you see -- after however many millennia of looking over your shoulder, you forget what trust feels like. Generation after generation you ponies have trampled the grass, and still you cling to the notion that, at your core, you’re all sugar and spice.
Did you honestly believe you could save them all? Did you honestly think they’d all want you to? I mean, Tirek, the King of Shadows, the Brood-Mother -- they’re one thing; they’re not hard to understand, not hard to fight -- they’re not kin. But the rest? You could never bring yourself to hurt them. Not when there was a chance you could set things right, show them where they had erred.
Little Twilight, they steered you so wrong.
Do you even understand how lucky you’d been up till now? How rare a thing it is to find someone who wants to be redeemed? Who’s willing to go the distance, look inside, acknowledge their mistakes? Who’s willing to look back on all they’ve done and say, objectively, truly, that they regret it? Every moment, from beginning to end? That they’re willing to change, simply because you disapprove of their choices?
But, no, a few chance successes, a shuckster here, a griffon there, that ideal builds in your head. A little success here, a little victory there, you’re ready to believe that your vaunted power of friendship can turn anypony. Any pony. It’s been drilled into your head for years, hasn’t it? A message handed down from on high that Friendship is Magic, that everypony can be saved if you try hard enough, that the only answer is forgiveness.
Oh, little Twilight. Little, little Twilight Sparkle.
Look where that got you.
Shall I tell you a secret, Twilight Sparkle? I don’t think it was ever about friendship. Never about ‘Harmony’. It was about you; about what you were willing to believe. Celestia and Luna knew it, Tirek knew it, I know it. I know what they saw in you, because I saw it too, from the very first day I laid eyes on you.
I looked at you, and I saw the heart of a universe. I've seen universes, and I've seen the little children on whose shoulders they rest. Some brash, some bold, some eager, some quiet, some cold, some tired, but all children, all fumbling at the edges of what they knew and what was demanded of them. And I looked at you, and the fire that burned in you put them all to shame. In you, I saw the girl who would not be broken, the bright creature who put aside despair for the love of her world and seemed poised to accept her place as the wheel on which her universe turned.
And quick as blinking, there you were -- wings, a castle, a shiny new crown to call your own. And I couldn't have been happier for you -- apotheosis, good show! Just the thing to save ponykind from all the dark creatures lurking at the fringes of your quaint little utopia. Horns outward, poised like lances against the inevitable stampede, hooves planted and ready to take on all challengers.
And then . . . nothing. You flew, you soared, you sang with the light of a thousand suns, and we watched your enemies burn.
And then?
Nothing.
You went about your life, changed nothing. Oh, sure, a sparkly new castle, a wish-fulfilling and eerily convenient god-tree -- business as usual, right? The status quo. You held the power to join your fellow Princesses in making your world truly safe from any threat, to safeguard your fellow pony from all that lurks in the dark, within and without.
But no. Instead, you proudly held up the old ideal, hiding behind a map and a periodic light-show with your friends' cutie marks to keep up the façade that the only real threats to you were outside the Equine ken; that no matter the situation, no matter the creatures and ponies involved, the monstrous and the forgivable were all nice and easy to categorise -- your ponies, no matter their sins, fit in the latter box, and everypony else, the former. And I think I understand why, now, here, at the end.
It is not because you loved them.
It is because you were afraid of what it might mean if you could not.
Because, surely, if one pony, just one, failed to live up to your ideal, your ideal would fall apart. Because if you couldn’t redeem every single wrongdoer, then the pedestal you set them on crumbles. Because if any single one of them proves you wrong, you’d have to do the unthinkable and acknowledge that you cannot save them all.
And now you're fading out, that bright little flame ebbing away. And why? All because you trusted one too many, one time too often. Seems petty, doesn't it? That one little pony, one little misplaced bit of faith, could break you -- break Equestria. And it has, you know. They’ll manage for a time, all puffed chests and fine words, but all around them, the walls will be crumbling, slowly. Equestria will die quietly, many ages hence, as the irredeemable tear your people asunder. As Harmony wanes, and the dark things conspire and multiply; as the Sisters lose touch with their land and abandon their grand project in despair; as your precious tree withers, they will have won.
And why?
Because you couldn't make the hard choice.
Because you couldn't stomach the notion that you might be wrong.
Because you were afraid.
And now? Now all I see is a broken bit of eggshell, a phoenix who wouldn't soar. A quiet little ember flickering at the very edges of warmth: a shattered thing. A reduced thing. The burning spark of a world, extinguished in one brief moment of violence.
And all it took was one pony to refuse. One pony to throw your forgiveness back in your face, to stab you in the back, and your pretty ideal comes tumbling all to pieces: Harmony, a lie; Friendship, a falsehood. And not simply because it is lacking; because it lacks you. You, the only one who could have made Harmony a reality, who could have given the world the notion that those violent, ugly few exist who cannot be saved. You, who could have seen them weeded out for the chaff they are. You, who could have realised paradise, had you but bothered to ensure it was protected.
Harmony died the moment you refused that call, Twilight Sparkle, the moment you refused to let go of what you knew and acknowledge the unthinkable truth. You couldn’t let go of that beautiful delusion that everyone could see the world your way, that everyone could be saved.
And now, it's out of your hooves. The world turns without you, from now to oblivion.
Farewell, little Twilight. Burn bright in those last moments; I'm sure whoever else comes along will find it just that much more poignant. It must seem a terrible waste to spend your last moments in this world soliloquising at you about your failings, when you are so clearly beyond rectifying them, but . . . well, you had to know. Even if no-one else, across the world, hears what I had to say, you did, and that's quite enough for me.
And as for my part? Well, perhaps, if we had more time, I could tell you all I suspect had been planned for you; all that Celestia and Luna had done to work you into their plans for a brighter future; or perhaps what I plan to do now that Harmony is fallen -- after all, what's one more unrepentant spirit of Chaos to add to the din, now that things have gone so badly askew?
Or, perhaps, I should wallow in the disappointment -- wail and beat my breast as all the could-have-beens shatter like so much falling glass. But we both know that's not who I am; there's far too much fun to be had in the imperfect world you leave behind, to waste my time lamenting the idyll your naivety cost us all.
Goodnight, Twilight Sparkle, and know that you are not forgiven.
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Hmm. I bet it was that equality unicorn.
Damn.
Just damn.
I do not know how I feel about this so I am going to say 'Oi, ye limey git!' and leave it at that, cause that's how you british types talk, right?
6575432 Yeah. Not a happy story.
6575605
6575386
Heh. Wonder how many people are going to dislike on that basis alone. Also, don't I owe you a PM? I should get on that.
6575703
I will give it an upvote for that RainbowDashicon though
This was... interesting.
6575386 I'm with Admiral on this one, it probably was that equality bitch!
That was interesting.
"One person -pony, in this case- can't change the world."?
Well, one just did.
6576081
Heh, very true. The real question: was it Twilight, or the pony that betrayed her?
6575839
The good kind of interesting, at least? ;P
6576391
Depends on who you ask, I suppose. Whoever betrayed Purplesmart caused a turning point in history, so it's her, to me.
Whereas somone else might say it was Twilight because once word gets out that she was stabbed in the back -literally- it might inspire others that she was so forgiving even to those who never deserved it. Might even inspire them to the point that maybe, just maybe Equestria won't crumble. But, who knows?
I don't know why but I read this in SkullFaces voice sounded pretty good
It could have been anyone really. The sad part is the last line pretty much sum's up this all wasn't in her mind as she lay dying. Someone could have saved her or brought help before dies.
Discord murdering Twilight wasn't funny the first time I read it, you know.
Eh, not my thing. Was curious as to who the person was, but that last line especially told me all I needed to know. Though, considering I never once liked the character in the first place, I was already guessing who it was. So much for character development...
As a note to everyone else reading these comments, I deleted my other comment. Also not going to leave a like or dislike.
6577318
Go back and read through again -- it's most definitely not Discord making with the stabby.
6576424
That's certainly another way of looking at it, and certainly one our spunky heroines would be likely to adopt. But it's been played up since Season 1 that Twilight has more of a role to play than just Equestria's Chief Evangelist.
Don't think it's too much of a stretch from there to say her death could have a lasting impact on Equestria.
6577142
That would've been a horrific cop-out, and taken quite a lot of the punch out of the reveal at the end.
6577516
Spoilers abound.
Then why does he stand to immediately make his move? Why does he refer to himself as unrepentant when he goes to do it? Why is it that this story talks about redemption/reformation, of which Discord has definitely gone under? I can't see the ex-Nightmare Luna doing this unless severely horrible characterization happens. Even if he didn't kill her himself, from the way this story flows, he stands to gain the most (as is usual with Discord and fanon). He could have just as easily let in Starlight or whoever the real killer is to do it. Maybe I wouldn't be thinking this way if I liked Discord in any capacity, but to me it's pretty screamingly obvious he had something to do with it.
Edit: Furthermore, why'd he, you know, not help her and instead talk her to death like a sociopath?
6577648
You're fundamentally mistaking correlation for causation, here. Simply because Discord benefits doesn't imply that he had anything to do with it. He simply has the chance to make something of it, and does so. Read again the opening lines: he's surprised to see her in her state, and only as he goes on does it dawn on him what transpired.
Recognise, furthermore, that this is told exclusively from Discord's perspective, which itself opens entirely new kettles of fish. Twilight could be beyond help; she could be dead; he might not even be talking in such a way as to be heard. This is not a conversation; Twilight has no opportunity to respond. It is Discord's diatribe against what he considers sheer bloody-minded idiocy on Twilight's part.
Finally, I fundamentally question your notion of Discord as 'reformed'. You seem to believe I've somehow defied existing characterisation by having him play the field in such a way that he benefits. Begging your pardon, but whatever your feelings on the idea of chaos incarnate, it's already been demonstrated that two of his centrally-defining canon character traits are recidivism and opportunism. Joining up with Tirek? Unleashing the Smooze? Do those scream 'beyond all chance of erring' to you?
6577714
Actually, it's the opposite. It's not that Discord's reformation has been "thrown out the window". In fact, based on the show I don't think he's even reformed at all. In my personal opinion, he's only there so people keep watching no matter what. After all, his reformation was handled in a similar manner to Twilight's ascension. Yet which one did people complain about? Not the one with Discord in it; after all, he's awesome and does no wrong, even when he's doing wrong. Heck, I don't expect him to have shown any real signs of change in his upcoming episode ("What About Discord?"). I fully expect it to be "Three's a Crowd, Take 2" with some elements of "Return of Harmony" thrown in there for good measure. If I'm wrong about it, then I'm wrong about it.
I'm just blaming Discord here because I plainly don't like him. And his characterization in this fic is pretty much exactly how I see him: an opportunistic scumbag who would sooner throw his friends to the wolves than actually be their friend. In fact, my interpretation now that your intent behind the fic has come to light is that he let whoever did the deed in and came back in after it was all done, playing innocent, because as so many fics and posts right here on this site have told me, that's all he needs to do to remain popular.
If you want to continue this discussion I'd highly recommend moving this to PMs. That way we don't clutter up the comment section here further with it.
6577763
Why on earth would I hide this in PMs? Comment-cluttering discussions like this are what I live and breathe on as a writer. Especially considering the fic was more meant to engender discussion on redemption than anything.
But, I'll try to be concise, regardless.
I do find it interesting that around half the talk I've had about this story thus far, before and after posting, has revolved around Discord, who, frankly, I never intended to have be focus of the story. He provides a perspective -- a diatribe, sure, counterpoint to the show, sure, but a perspective nonetheless. And that perspective, I don't think, should fall by the wayside simply because it comes from any one character. All I need do is change the last line of the story, and suddenly it's anyone else in the show talking, just like Twilight's killer. I chose him because it was narratively convenient to have the counterpoint to Harmony decry what he sees as its failings, not because it's somehow important that he saunters off to do his thing at the end.
6577812
Ah, okay, my mistake then. Still think reforming Discord was a complete load... oh wait, he's awesome and is automatically redeemable because crocodile tears. All you have to do to "reform" someone like him is to enable him for the better part of a day. Yeah. Great lesson.
I'll go ahead and leave. Although... I think most of the discussion before this was really "who did it" than "Discord's a complete douchenozzle". I will point out, though, that using Discord to discuss the failings of reformation, I feel, was an excellent choice (and not just because I think it was a load he was reformed) for the reason you gave as well as the reasons I already stated.
6577844
Don't feel like you have to 'leave'! I'm sure there'll be plenty more to pick through, especially if other people end up having strong opinions about this, too.
Honestly, I'm completely with you on the reformation bit. I think he was a fantastic villain, and could've been unfathomably more complex than he's been presented this last few seasons. Admittedly, this is a horrendously reductionist interpretation of him, considering the medium, but I'm glad it seems to have worked out.
Okay, I'm officially confused.
Discord says that he is unrepentant, meaning showing no regrets for one's wrongdoings. So...was he the murderer or is he simply monologuing about his former enemy's failures and her death?
6578312
It's the latter. He doesn't have any reason to kill Twilight himself, but that won't stop him from mocking her for failing to see what he did. And he drives home the point at the end that anyone can betray her at any point by taking advantage of her death to betray the remaining Mane Six, to cast aside his so-called 'redemption' and take up chaos anew.
I'm a sucker for this kind of fic, honestly - though I don't see where the comedy tag comes in. It's just Discord being Discord in my eyes.
All it takes is for one misplaced stone one loose brick, one errant twitch, for the entire castle to come crumbling down.
As for that one guy who keeps hating on Discord's reformation, I can't help but disagree. There's a tale of a man who lives in darkness all his life, and he's happy, for he thinks that that's all there is to life. Then he sees a candle, and he realizes that there's so much more, that that which he thought was everything, can't even compare to this tiny, insignifigant light. Discord isn't completely reformed - he never will be - but he's been convinced of the values of friendship just enough so that he doesn't cause a cataclysm.
Alternatively, you could say Discord is crying crocodile tears, and is waiting for the opportune moment - but honestly, what the hell is he waiting for? He had the perfect opportunity, if you'll recall - Fluttershy took off her necklace. If he truly had absolutely no intention of reforming, and was waiting for the key moment to strike, that was it - grab it, teleport away and boom. World's his. But no, he didn't do that. Why? Because there's some small spark of sanity, some small spark of hope, some infetestimal spark of harmony within his twisted, corrupted mind.
Honestly, people should check out the fics Figments and Forever young - they are both very interesting views of Discord's personality and mindset, and largely shaped my view of the character. Plus, they're just well-written stories in general. But, I've forced my views and opinions on you long enough. I take my leave.
EEYAGH! THE BLACK SPOILER BOXES ARE ATTACKING! SAVE YOURSELVES!
6578394
Oops. Sorry.
And thanks for the clarification because my mind was about to rage a civil war.
6578408
No worries! Glad I could clarify.
6578404
Oh, but surely it's a testament to any story that it require this much spoiler-texting? Also, you missed a line.
Well, it is Discord.
Whatever else he may be, he's a walking circus in his own right.
There are two ways to answer the dilemma with Fluttershy that you posit, one of which paints Discord far more cruelly than the other. First, he could simply have passed up the opportunity on the basis that he had no assurance that the offer was genuine, or that the other Elements wouldn't have been enough to blast him into submission. The second, which I personally prefer, is that Discord could see the opportunity to wreak yet more chaos by feigning acceptance of friendship, and then breaking the trust and hearts of everyone who came to appreciate him later. Either is befittingly cunning of a millennia-old god-being.
Though, far be it from me to try and tell you how to interpret the character; this story simply assumes the worst regarding him. And, again, as I said before, I'll argue that he's more the mouthpiece for the perspective than personally responsible in his own right here.
6578404
You rang?
"Discord isn't completely reformed"
Then why'd they bother bringing him back at all if his character arc's going to remain in perpetual limbo? I have my own ideas, as you read.
"he's been convinced of the values of friendship just enough so that he doesn't cause a cataclysm."
Which is why he didn't tell anyone about the plunderseeds because he was suddenly the expert on friendship despite both driving away just about everyone that could have been his friend eons ago and showing absolutely no interest in not being a selfish prick before or after his reformation. Which is why he set out to ruin Twilight's day with Cadence just because he could. Which is why he sold out everyone to Tirek... And of course who can forget his reaction to Tree Hugger? Summon a dangerous creature? And like I said, I don't have high hopes for his upcoming episode.
In fact, I don't buy into the sympathy card (see: "oh no, Discord's getting snubbed! Well time to ally with Tirek, because clearly he's not the problem!") with the Tirek thing. If you insist on acting like a dick, people are not going to like you. That's a lesson Discord should have learned very quickly, but no. If he did learn, the show would be short one popular character that I personally don't think has changed at all. If they were going to bring him back but not change his personality in any way, then why not just leave him as a villain?
Fact is, I wanted to believe Discord could change more than the bare minimum required to keep him as a friend. I felt Season 5 would actually be a fresh start for him after Tirek showed him the wrong way to be a friend. And maybe I'd be more sympathetic if...
Well, let's just say that like you, my vision of Discord was colored by the fan interpretations. Unfortunately many fans saw absolutely no problem with... let's just leave it there. There *is* a good reason I mistook Discord as the murderer in this fic, though. And let me tell you something here. If you hear nothing but people singing about how sympathetic he is, about how he's really just this misunderstood soul... his debut does him absolutely no favors. None. I refuse to listen to cries about how sympathetic he is when he spent two episodes being a G-rated sadist to the main characters. And it was especially grating when I saw a fic about how Discord was being abused...by Fluttershy. But that's a different story for a different day, and certainly not one I feel should be told in a comment section.
6577532
Oh it'd have a devastating effect, for sure. The only ones capable of keeping everything from crumbling after her death would be too busy grieving themselves. Rainbow and Jack most likely on a hunt to kill, too
But if they pulled themselves together quick enough, sufficient damage control can be done.
6578655
i.imgur.com/B7q5Vx1.jpg
Also, it just makes my little heart swell with pride that this conversation thread is turning into a perfect representation of what the story's all about.
6578682
Sequel!
This was good. It had a chilling vibe to it that was slow and well executed even if it was macabre.
Read as a result of being in the 'I Just Want A Comment' Group. Be sure to pay it forward with a comment elsewhere.
Given this fic is basically an entire Discord monologue, I have to say it does a good job of reinforcing what he's telling Twilight Sparkle; specifically, the way he views the world is alien to the way anybody else does. There are overlaps with regular ponies, for certain, but for the most part as a literal avatar of chaos his mindset is different from anyone else's, more than just the individualistic differences between any two random ponies or griffons and so on. Similarly, he also makes an unreliable narrator: everything he talks about is filtered through his own perception.
In fact, I choose to view the fic as being more about him than it is about Twilight and her choices and actions in life as a result. Even with his few lines at the end, I think he still shows himself to have been affected by Twilight's own life with these two paragraphs:
I see you don't toss too many hints around as to the perp. All we get is that it's a female, and it's not Trixie or Gilda given Discord specifically mentions those two by description, and narrative causality means it's not some other shuckster or griffon.
It was Starlight Glimmer with the Knife in the Library obviously.
6605610
I would contest the absoluteness of the first two statements, but I fully agree with the third. He is unreliable in his accounting of the situation (what of it we know), and his philosophy does demand a certain abandonment of convention, but I don't think that lends it any less credence than anyone else's in the situation.
I've been getting this quite a fair bit, actually, to the point where I'm starting to wonder myself.
I prefer to look at it as a moment in time, which, while only really told from one particular perspective, is comprehensive enough to base your judgements of both characters on. I only hope I managed to execute it that way.
Quite possible. Again, though, I think he would honestly prefer to think of it as speaking on behalf of Equestria. Whether he's in a position to do so, or should be allowed to, is up for debate.
Well, all he claims there is that Twilight and Friends believed they'd convinced Trixie and Gilda to lay off their old behaviours. I wouldn't necessarily exclude them from among the suspects solely because they've previously been 'reformed'; as we see elsewhere in the fic, that's none too good a defence.
And I suppose another thing to consider is, as someone pointed out earlier -- maybe one of my pre-readers -- that this takes place well after the show. I hadn't thought about that much, but it certainly offers another, darker interpretation -- that, even after years of envangelising friendship, it wasn't enough.
6637435 I would have responded sooner, but FIMFiction's system notification of replies to comments seems to have gone beyond somewhat broken in the last week to just flat-out completely broken, so it's only when I manually check stories I've commented on that I see your response.
The reason I exclude Trixie and Gilda from the list of suspects is because Discord specifically mentioned them. Even for Discord, it would be an odd narrative choice to mention them the way he does in an off-hand, nonchalant manner if one of them was the killer.
Thumbs up if you came back from Admiral Biscuit's Bonus: It's Only a Flesh Wound!
PS. Knew it was Discord pretty quickly. Well, that was idly chatting, not the stabber.
6660590 Gee, not twelve hours and already the advertisers are rolling in . . .
Did you at least like the story?
6661203 lol yes of course. We think Discord was well written, his condescending tone playing nicely with the "ha ha, told you so" attitude.
Not much else for me to say, he was indeed chatting with a to-be corpse after all.
6661273
Lookit all dem spoily commentses! :O
I like how you very deftly dodged the "who killed Twilight" question while making it clear enough who did to likely ruffle feathers. Also not sure why Discord isn't tagged, since I really had no doubts it was him talking. :B
7056587 The only problem with tagging the chappie in question is that it might influence peoples' perception of the story going into it, which, frankly, is one of the few things I dislike about the short and long-description specificity requirements, i.e. the reason this story failed moderation at least once before getting properly published.
But, all that aside, I'm glad you enjoyed it! Going back and reading it now, it seems a lot more thoughtful than when I wrote it. The inherent issue with writing one's feelings, I guess.
I so don't like this, it actually just left me hallow: I don't even want to think anything negative about this. So here you go, down vote and a fave. Bravo.
7794032 Well, that's certainly a combination of things I never expected to receive? Thanks, I think?
You can has review!
6637435
I know this is late to the party. But I love this story, for what it says and does about Twilight, and their world.
So many dislike this story because inspite of the subject of the show. Twilights own actions support this result, read episode zero. Why is this hard to stomach?
Further have fans forgotten, this the same Twilight that killed Sombra.
Regardless I just wanted to thank you, and have a kind day!
I found your story via a reviewer.
I don't want to believe that Discord is so entirely gone to just up and leave her to die without at least SOME company, even if it was something absurd like a lint ball.
From a post-show perspective (I joined the herd around Season 7 or thereabouts) Discord is first and foremost a trickster, he enjoys causing confusion and chaos but he isn't a killer, at least not directly. If something bad happens from one of his gags or pranks then that's too bad and stuff but he doesn't go out of his way to harm pones if that makes any sense, and yes I know he's done loads of stuff that is at best selfish and at worst totally uncaring but he never directly "physically" harms anyone, when they were in the maze at his earliest if he was a straight out villain, why not take out these "bearers" with something a little more dangerous than over-sized bunnies or literal sight-gags.
Don't think overly hard about this comment as it was written at nearly 11 pm so yeah...