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Having been close friends their whole lives, it was only natural that a matter as personal as faith and beliefs would come to Fluttershy and Rainbow as a topic of conversation. Naturally, the two aren't exactly on the same page with that question, yet what follows isn't the kind of talk they were expecting.
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This is a good story
Nice and all, but something Fluttershy said made me want to clarify something. Faith is the belief in something without sufficient evidence. Faith and critical thinking are mortal enemies. The bible holds faith, believing in things without evidence or even in spite of it, as the height of wisdom. Its core principles would have someone abandon reason in favor of blind devotion to a being they can't possibly know is real, and not believing in said being blindly is tantamount to the worst crimes you can commit. So yes, asking questions isn't 'sacrilegious,' however it is counter to the whole idea behind religion, which is to believe something without proper justification through reason and logic.
Anyway, I've seen conversations like this on a few occasions. It's a well-written story! Thumbs up! Hope I didn't offend anyone somehow.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with my Mormon best friend in High School.
9739157
You assume the 'faith' in the story is 1:1 with Christianity
But i agree with your stance
9739183
That's true lol. I guess it wasn't specified. It still applies to most religions. I feel like there was one that didnt promote faith so explicitly. Buddhism? I sometimes hear it called the 'nonreligious religion.' I have no idea how true that is though. Zero knowledge of Buddhist teachings.
9739157
I value both in my life, and I can tell you from years of experience that faith is not the absence of critical thought, the same way that courage is not the absence of fear. Here’s how I look at things: science teaches me about the physical, and faith and spirituality gives me hope for something deeper.
Just as a clarification I’m not offended since you were worried if you had offended anyone.
9739217
You misunderstood me. Do you have Hope in such things based on solid evidence? Unlikely. If you have a good reason to believe something, you don't need the excuse people call faith. I have never called faith the absence of critical thought, good sir. Indeed, they are not mutually exclusive at all. Faith is merely a tool that people use to reach a conclusion, much like critical thinking. It's just a bad tool.
Here's an exercise to prove my point. Name me any one position in the whole world I couldn't take on faith. Can I take it on faith that white people are superior? Yes. Can I take it on faith that gravity doesn't exist? Yes. A method that can justify anything and everything, even thing's in direct opposition to each other, is a bad method.
Behold the following. I take it on faith that ghosts exist. Perfectly valid according to you, yes? Now, I take it on faith that ghost do not exist. Bam. Two opposite position's justified with faith to equal value.
Just to be 100% clear, I am not trying to be mean and I am not attacking you. I wished to have civil discussions in the spirit of the story. I know you said you weren't offended, but I find that talking about such things is often taken as some sort of personal attack.
9739235
You said faith and critical thought are mortal enemies, which is like saying one cannot exist while the other does. Ergo the subtext of your original statement is that faith is the absence of critical thought. And really I’m not truly offended but if you want my honest opinion, this story clearly deals in a philosophical matter that you view in a negative light. At a glance one could make the argument that you were “offended” first, and felt compelled to “correct” the author on the matter.
The title of this story really should be “She With Faith; She Without, and How They’re Able to be Friends Anyway.”
I realise I probably should have said this beforehand, but can we try to keep things nice in the comments? I understand that a story based around these ideas can spark discussion, but I also know that said discussions have a history of turning sour, so I would like to say that we should attempt to respect one another as much as we can.
I'd like to go to Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." This is what Fluttershy means as so told in the title.
I'm like Rainbow here. I used to believe. I WANT to believe. I'm just not sure I do.
Then again, Rainbow knows magic exists. Does that change anything?
"You're the best agnostic ever, Dashie!"
)
"No one could be less sure about the existence of the divine than you!"
(Yes, Dash is an atheist rather than agnostic in this story, but the line amuses me too much.
In any case, definitely the kind of interfaith dialogue I can get behind. Lovely bit of discourse... though Dash never struck me as the most inquisitve person in her group. Still a good read.
9739266
They ARE mortal enemies in a sense. That does not at all imply that one can't exist together, just that they probably shouldn't. What I mean is that they are very different methods of achieving the same thing, but faith is an incredibly unreliable method. Knowledge and critical thinkig are dangerous to belief. Essentially, once you have a stance based on good reason, why have it with a bad reason? Faith is not the absence of critical thinking. The absence of critical thought is nothing. I have an absence of critical thought concerning the matter of beaver archaeology, that doesn't mean I have faith.
But what philosophical thing do you think I take issue with? I was not in the slightest bit offended by this story.
9739498
We don't pick and choose what we believe. Makes it a little weird that religion condemns non-belief but whatever. Knowing magic exists doesn't change anything at all. Actually, say we knew for a fact that Christianity was 100% correct about a man named Jesus coming back from the dead, and dieing on a cross, etc. THAT wouldnt even mean anything. Magic exists, but so what? Does that really get us closer to knowing a god exists? If it does, then which of the tens of thousands of gods is it? Zeus? The thing is, countless things would have to be proven to justify Rainbow believing. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." But, religion hasn't met ANY good evidence. So, it would require quite a bit more than magic existing.
9739620
Religion HAS to condemn non-belief. Non-believers are a threat. Religion says the universe is THIS way and everyone else that says different is wrong. Because if they aren't wrong, their views may be valid. If they aren't wrong, that means RELIGION is wrong. And we can't have that. That's why science and religion are antithetical, science asks 'Why is the universe like this?' and religion says 'Because God did it. Shut up. Stop asking questions.'
But yeah, that's fair. Just because magic is real doesn't automatically mean gods are.
9739545
This story reminds me of an older fic where Twilight went around asking the girls what they believe in. Rainbow was an atheist there as well, violently so. Fluttershy was Buddhist-ish, AJ Christian-ish, Rarity worshiped Alicorns, and Pinkie just believed in God because it made her happy.
This. This is good. I like this. We need more of this. This whole story, but especially this. Perfect.
Honestly, this whole story is surprisingly relatable. My parents and I are practicing Catholics, but my siblings have all stopped practicing in recent years, and quite a few of my colleagues don't share my beliefs. And yet, I don't think my relationships, familial or professional, have suffered for it. Obviously, I would prefer if they did share my beliefs, but that's their decision, and I can respect that. After all, one of the main tenets of my faith is the concept of free will, and who am I to infringe upon that?
9739157
Thomas Aquinas would like a word.
Celestia is the de facto goddess of the ponies and is there in plain sight, which must surely help belief levels in Equestria.
9739662
That guys a total hack on the matter of religion. Here's a fun video debunking one of his most famous arguments! https://youtu.be/BUScILYNykc
I'd love to know why I got so many downvotes, but no one that dared to challenged anything I've said. They downvoted my observation on the weakness of faith as a method to find the truth, yet no one even tried to rebut me.
9740267
And here's one of the top comments on that same video.
And if you're still curious why you got so many downvotes, I'd hypothesize that it has something to do with your dismissive remarks about faith and critical thought being diametrically opposed. The father of genetics was a monk. The Big Bang theory was proposed by a priest. I could go on, but I believe my point has been made.
9740340
Yeah, it's more a debunking of a more modern version of an old argument. Aquinas does indeed commit special pleading. Everything needs a mover, um, you know, except God who was the first mover. Also, we know that he's just scientifically wrong now. That's not his fault but that's how it is. I was tryin to be obviously hyperbolic when I called him a hack btw. He was a great thinker for his time.
Oh, and saying that smart people believed something doesnt mean anything. Yes, smart people can be wrong. Yes, they can use a bad method to reach a bad conclusion.
Now then, as I've said many times, I don't think they are "diametrically opposed." They are both tools that are used to achieve understanding to varying degrees of success. I'll just assume you haven't read my comments.
9740340
Faith and critical thought ARE diametrically opposed by definition. Humans are simply good at cognitive dissonance.
@me
9739235
false , faith is solid trust on something , it does not imply whether or not you have good reasons to do so
9741032
Faith IS the bad reason of the equation. It's a useless tool to find put what's true, as I demonstrated in an earlier comment. So yes, you can be right with faith, but here's the thing. Faith can lead you to a correct answer JUST AS EASILY as a false answer.
Here's an exercise for you. What other wethod can deliver us to a good answer and a bad answer equally well? A coin flip. Would you rely on a coin flip the same way you rely on faith? Why or why not?
@me
You keep missusing the word faith as if it solely meant underserved / unearned faith
Again , faith is having trust on something / someone to be true or reliable . It doesnt imply whether that trust is well placed or if it's unsound
Eg : i have faith that vaccines avaible to me are worth taking since they are backed by medical studies
This was just a really nice little story.
I was raised religious, though in a household where my father was a Lutheran and my mother a Catholic. And while I consider myself somewhat irreverent of the Christian faith, I typically have nothing against those of religious faith. I've known wonderful people who go to church, and I've known people who were agnostic or atheist who were wonderful as well; one of my very best friends was non-religious.
Quite often I'm disheartened by the argument between people over faith and those who don't. I don't begrudge you if you don't believe... but far too often I've seen people use faith and belief as an insult, equating worshippers with all manner of things wrong with humanity. That's why I'm so pleased that this story is able to present a conversation between Dash and Fluttershy where they discuss their differences about faith, respectfully, without one side coming down on or holding up the other. And that Dash, a non-believer, is able to appreciate certain things about worshippers, be it religious artwork or the assurance that some can have, is a nice touch as well.
And also, the ending was fun too.
9741260
I feel like people don't read my comments. That's the whole point. You don't need faith to believe that about vaccines, there's evidence and there's reason. I think vaccines work because they are backed by medical studies. Where does faith come in? It doesn't. Maybe you have faith that propells your confidence out of proportion to what the medical studies provide, but that's still unreasonable. Your example isn't about faith, it's about being convinced because of your actual good reason. It doesn't matter of you use the word faith. You're not talking about faith in the same sense as I am. As a tool to find out what is true.
Besides, even if your example was sound, I've acknowledged that faith can lead you to a correct answer. You can reach good answers with bad methods.
Most important part incoming:
In other words, using faith in the way you described doesn't actually mean faith in the sense I'm talking about. You're talking about faith as interchangeable with trust in the sense that you can have faith after you have a good reason, which is fine and justified. I'm talking about using faith as the reason itself, which is not fine and not justified.
Very thoughtful. Wished the rest of the world had this type of thinking...
Nice. Rare to see/hear a discussion like this without someone’s feathers getting ruffled.
I’m a Christian and I’ve actually had a crush on human Fluttershy for almost three years now. To hear her talking about faith and God makes me very happy. If I could go to the church that Fluttershy and her family go to, I would be there in a heartbeat! 😄
In all seriousness, I believe that this story will help me be more comfortable when discussing faith with others, especially non-Christians and non-believers. Thanks for the story and God bless you! 🙏