Some thoughts on writing, being pre-read, mstings and such... · 11:17pm Jan 16th, 2012
(Edit: One thing I should make clear, when I talk about pre-readers here, I'm not talking about EqD pre-readers, or pre-readers for any web page, I'm talking about the ones that offer to help/you ask for help before you send stuff to be published.)
So, I'm sure most of use here have dealt with criticisms about what we should and should not write, how we should do it, what we should absolutely never do and plenty of rule book reasons to why.
And I can only hope that we all know that the rules are to be broken when you know them and with a clear purpose in doing so. This is something I think some editors/pre-readers ignore at times. I think it is easier to deny a story on grammatical inaccuracies than it is on reading the whole work.
Now, to make the point above more clear, I will point out that that does not mean that you should ignore grammar or that you should not do your damned best to follow the rules... or learn them if you didn't know them that well (more on that in a bit).
However, what I am trying to say is that you should not stick to every single rule they point out to you and expect that perfect grammar and a perfectly by-the-book story instantly means that it's good.
What I will always stand for is that if you write a story, you should worry about telling the story more than worrying about being by-the-book. Yes, there are inevitable rules that you must follow for the story to flow, but that is my point.
Make it flow and worry about the extra rules later.
For example, I was once told that a scene I had written was too short, that I had to write a lot more to justify it being its own scene. Never mind that the idea I was trying to show the reader was there, clear as day and well written to boot. Hell, I hadn't written with such perfect and accurate grammar in a long time. However, they concentrated on the fact that it was a few paragraphs long instead of whether the idea being shown was complete, and thus the purpose of the scene was achieved or not.
So, if the scene is complete, if it shows what it is supposed to show and it's purpose is achieved... why the hell should I over-write it and possibly mess it up? The answer? I shouldn't. And I shouldn't have to explain that to a pre-reader in order to justify it.
However... if that pre-reader tells me that the scene doesn't actually show what it is supposed to, well then... I should shut up and edit it until it does.
But there's a big difference right there, if you look at it. On one I'm being chastised because I don't conform to a rule. On the next one I'm being told that I'm not communicating correctly.
It's the same with a lot of grammar rules that some are taught and some are not. For example, the whole punctuation in dialogue. There are a lot of cynical individuals out there that really get in your case over things like that... perhaps it never occurs to them that you never learned those rules. That most of the writing you did was academical, where you use quotation marks to well... quote. Not for dialogue. (Happened to me. Because of where I lived, English was my second language. The rules for dialogue are different in Spanish, and the rules are again different in UK English.)
Yes, once you are aware of the rules for that, reading (or pre-reading) a story where the author doesn't follow those rules can get a bit annoying... but... is the story good? Or are you going to let some grammar rule stop you from reading the rest, possibly enjoying it and then give feedback?
A job of pre-reading/proof-reading/editing should encompass both the overall story and the details. So don't give me that crap about not reading a story because the commas are not in the right place. Your advice might be very valuable, but it is only if you put things into perspective. If you can say, "You have problems with this scene because of [insert]... and also you should really check your punctuation, here's a guide on how it works." It is infinitely better and more helpful than saying just: "Dude, your punctuation sucks! I'm not reading this crap."
Same goes with MSTings. Like the pre-reader or editor that only sees the rules, MSTings only focus on bringing out the bad, concentrating on things that might make sense in the whole context but as a single sentence they don't.
And on those I don't fault the writers of the MSTing, but rather the reader who then goes to tell everypony that... "This story is crap!".
Let me put it bluntly. Anypony can write a MSTing. If you don't believe me, point me to a story you think is perfect and I will make fun of it and tear it apart.
Whether it is funny or not, good or bad is irrelevant.
It is much easier to destroy and make fun of a story than it is to write it. Sure, you can argue that a story "deserved it" in some cases, but did you read the story before you read the MSTing? Probably not. And if you haven't, and you feel justified in saying a story is bad... well, shame on you. Really. Like with so many other things, you might have liked it even if somepony else hated it.
You can do a MSTing of Dr. Shivago, and it would probably be pretty funny, but that wouldn't make the movie any less good. It's just that, if you're going to watch the MSTing and can watch/read what it is based on before you do so... why not? It might even increase the comedy... or you might decided that it doesn't deserve the treatment it got. It's all about perspective.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't read/write MSTings, but rather (like with pre-reading) that before you start thinking of riffing a story, you should really read it and see if you enjoy it.
Anyway, I'm done here for now. Any thoughts? Feel free to comment!
~WD
P.S. Also, I'd like to point out that on my Bio I'll be posting updates on the progress of chapters and (eventually) estimated release dates.
P.P.S. I count 4 grammar mistakes at first glance, how many do you see? XD
I dunno, I don't look for grammatical mistakes when they are not freakishly numerous. I have read a few good stories, but the grammar was so bad that I just could not even get through the first chapter. I tried, and I almost died from it. I am a true bibliophile. I love books, and I cannot read a book that does not follow at least some grammatical processes. This? This is nothing! One or two grammar problems I can stand. One or two in every sentence, not so much.
Whoa! Quite a rant! Makes sense to me though. Nitpicking punctuation and grammar and ignoring the flow of the story itself doesn't help anypony. I've read a lot of stuff that was hard to get through for technical reasons that had a good premise and story behind it that made it worth looking past the missing/incorrect words and the occasional lost quotation mark. Very seldom have I run across something where I couldn't figure out what the author meant.
That said, I've been enjoying your stories. Even have a couple crunched into ebooks so I can put 'em on my Kindle and re-read them at lunch. :) Don't let the nitpickers get you down.
I feel bad that your being assaulted by nitpikers...... they need to get a life. The only gammar I even care to notice is if basic grammar is held, capitals for names, correct words like thought/ bought not theirs are those kinds. Fanfiction isn't meant to be perfect, people are meant to read it for its plot.....
On the other hand I do search hard for errors in continuity like if John starts talking to Joe if the error is made with who John is talking to. Though they have comedic value ...... John quickly told John (Joe) the plan for attack. And even then I'll just mention it, its not unreadable unless your at a brick's level of intelligence.
5187 Well, as I said, it doesn't mean that you should just ignore grammar! I mean, if you cannot understand anything the author wrote, then there are serious communication problems...
but if it's a few mistakes here and there (that should be polished later anyway) all I'm saying is that I think it is bad practice to ditch a story on that... 
5188 Thanks!
that's very cool to know! And yeah, missing words and such happen A LOT, have you ever read a "Proof Copy" of a book that's scheduled to be released? 
It has so many mistakes you sometimes wonder if the author actually knows his grammar.
5189
Thanks, although I'm not on the receiving end as some others. I've found some really cool individuals that comb through the mess I sometimes make to point out corrections for me 
but I agree with you on what you said about Fanfiction... it's not supposed to be perfect.
Urgh, I have yet to read a MST that I found even the least bit funny.
Actually - I did like The Best Most Awesome Radical Character EVER! but that doesn't really count
5191 Yeah, a few mistakes? No problem. A shit-ton-o'-bricks of mistakes? Hold up a sec, I need to contact Houston.
...
Alright, I'm back.
Aaaand... Here goes:
I enjoy MST3Ks. I would never have been able to get through Sweet Apple Massacre if I had read the original, and even the MST made me feel queasy.
Gorefics are, apparently, not my thing. Funny seeing as how there are a few movies in that cataGOREy that I love.
But I digress; there are many stories out there that can be MST'd with wondrous results, just because they are so terrible, or terribly good. I read the MST of Cupcakes before I read Cupcakes itself. It's just bad. The MST was funny, and it improved Cupcakes quite a bit. The original was just... bad. Parchments, on the other hoof, I had read prior to suggesting its candidacy in the MST. It was better than Cupcakes, thanks to in part for the correct grammar, the easy fluidity, and the fact that it as Twilight, doing something as stupid as Pinkie for reasons just as stupid. Ciao!
5207
But at least you tried! That's more than a lot of readers do. 
5204
Sadly I haven't read that story, but it's been added to the list!
Do you feel better getting this off your chest?
I fully agree with every point you have made.
No story should be held back solely on a few typos and grammatical/punctuation errors. I, and several others, often in GDocs stream or story comments tend to offer editing note after a story is posted in the event the author wants to touch up the story shortly after posting. None of us ever criticize these mistakes or have the audacity to suggest the story is "unreadable" due to them. In fact the only reason we do this is because we like the story so much we care to the point of obsessive fanbronyism.
On the subject of MSTing, I only like MSTs of stories that are either genuinely objectively bad or ones that contain "lulz worthy" content to begin with. In other words, there's a pre-existing reason to make fun of the story, rather than just picking apart any story for the hell of it.
One thing I will mention from personal experience is the emotional aspect: The more I like a story, the more errors I will notice in it and the more I will care about these issues. I tend to be extremely hypercritical of stories I like but have "problems" with compared to ones I like less.
5230 Awesome avatar. And yes, actually
I do feel better. To be honest I am not often the victim of situations like I described above (although I had some fics MSTed a while ago) This is mostly my perspective of how I would like stories to be pre-read... when it comes to editing however, I feel that a harsher approach to rules should be appreciated... but when pre-reading... well, the objective goes beyond detail editing, or that is what I believe. Of course the above is all my opinion.
5231 Pre-readers have a really tough job... if I thought I could be more objective I would have offered to help at EqD (for example) with the Grimdark fics since I don't mind them that much... but going through so many fics and the honest dedication to it... I don't know if I'm up for it
I don't think all pre-readers are like this at all though (thankfully!) but I have met a few that do go that extra mile to be concerned by minute details that, although they should be addressed and fixed, are not necessarily a reason to drop a story. I guess it irked me that some *do* act like that, even if the majority don't. If it sounded like a blanket statement, I do apologize since that was not the intention...
I understand where you come from with the emotional response to that... if you see a promising story, it makes sense to want to help the author become much better at writing it!
I completely agree with your first point about rules being broken when necessary for story. (Especially a Doctor Who story) However I don't write much so the rest kinda flew over my head.
The way I see it, as long as the 'bad' grammar or spelling or otherwise doesn't detract from the story, they're negligible. Some exclusions are homonyms, because they can, at best, cause a pause in the reading. it's these things that bug me a little, but when the story itself is decently constructed, it doesn't bother me. much.
Nonetheless, I dislike stories at the 'published' stage that still have the grammar and shorthand from the brainstorming/draft stages. It's very irritating, and I try to keep things like that out of the stories I write, and I advise to on the ones I proof.
I especially dislike stories that write dialogue without quotes, or things like that, because it can end up very hard to read.
Person1:what is this?
person2:I don't even
me:
For the most part, I completely agree with your rant, though probably with nicer words. there's many great points and it all makes sense. which proves your point.
so, all in all...
nice /rant/ 
To me, the general story-line is what matters most. I can look over quite a few grammar mistakes as long as what is happening in a specific scene or even an entire story gets communicated.
I will admit that grammar can affect how a story is communicated; however, you can have perfect grammar with absolutely no mistakes but the point of the story could be
To me, the general story-line is what matters most. I can look over quite a few grammar mistakes as long as what is happening in a specific scene or even an entire story gets communicated.
I will admit that grammar can affect how a story is communicated; however, you can have perfect grammar with absolutely no mistakes but the point of the story could be communicated in a completely decipherable way.
(ignore the first comment
i sent it too early)
*indecipherable way
(I'm making mistakes everywhere today, sorry about this
)
This is actually a topic in linguistics: prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. Descriptive grammar is based on how native speakers talk and naturally use language. Prescriptive grammar is...well...prescriptive. Most linguists are descriptivists. As am I, and, from the rant and comments, so are you and many others. And now I present to you fodder for arguments with prescriptivists and grammar snobs who are being annoyingly fussy.
Linguistics, ahoy! Oh, prescriptive grammar, how annoying you can be! That whole no-split-infinitives rule? Prescribed by grammarians by applying rules of Latin to English. This also resulted in the don't-end-a-sentence-with-a-preposition rule. He as the default third-person singular subject pronoun? An 18th or 19th century grammarian decided it must be so, the jackass. He--and that grammarian was a 'he'--is the source of the frustration of so many students.
This is not to say prescriptive grammar does not have its place and uses, but some people go completely overboard with it.
tl;dr
I agree with you completely! Linguistics!
I got into an augment with my English teacher over this exact thing once, so I know exactly where your coming from.
5322
5307 That's a very interesting comment, thanks!
I wasn't very aware of how linguistics really came into play here, other than the usual subconscious and vague sense that it was related to that in some way... 
5277 No worries, I understand what you're getting at
5266
yeah, like I said, basic grammar and such IS important to any story, otherwise you cannot communicate at all what you want to say... the problem is when technicalities are made a whole lot bigger than they are just because somepony wants perfect grammar.
5247
I did rant a lot.
5241 More of a "Don't be a grammar Nazi when it stops you from giving objective help/advice on the overall story." It is seldom the case when you cannot simply explain the rule they are breaking and then proceed to help with other problems. Unless the only thing being detrimental to the story is grammar. But that is normally not the case.
Ouch. I'm guessing that somepony had an... unpleasant and awkward situation with a prereader or two.
First off, while prereaders are important, they also have their own style of writing, so they won't be perfect as well. If they are faulting you for grammar and getting mad at you over that (and the grammar isn't THAT bad), then yeah, kick their asses. Also keep in mind you can (and should in some instances) totally ignore what they say. It's fun that way.
Second, You write some really good stories. Both are amazing, and whatever you are doing right now, you need to continue doing it!
Third, update the Sweetie Bell story.
Its honestly one of my favorites.
Last, here's a picture of Fluttershy to make you feel better determinismsucks.net/archive/My_Little_Pony_Fluttershy_Cute-%28n1291717925578%29.jpg