January 27
This morning when she was getting dressed, I asked Peggy if she knew who God was. She gave me a sort of funny look, and then asked why I wanted to know, so I told her how I was learning about Thomas Aquinas and what he'd said.
She said that some people believe that He created everything, and set down laws which mankind was to follow if they wanted to be rewarded in the afterlife. Then she said that some other people don't believe that He exists at all.
I asked her what she believed, and she said that she wasn't sure. It wasn't an easy question, she told me, and a lot of people wouldn't want to talk about it, and some people would want to talk about it too much.
That wasn't a very satisfactory answer, but it was pretty obvious that this was something that Peggy really didn't want to discuss with me, so I asked her who I might talk to if I wanted to learn more about God.
After a little bit of thought and some muttering to herself, she suggested that I could talk to one of the religion professors about it. She didn't know for sure where their offices were, but she knew that there were offices in the basement of Stetson Chapel (which is the building with the bell tower), and probably anyone in there would be able to tell me.
I thought about asking everyone else at breakfast, but then I decided that if Peggy didn't want to talk about it, maybe nobody would either.
I sat between Crystal Dawn and Luke again in climate class. One of the things the professor does is put the forecast for the next week up on the board, along with a pressure map. Despite the difference in symbols, it was about the same as the ones we used in Equestria, and it hadn't taken me too long to figure out how it worked. There'd probably be low, scattered cumulus clouds Friday morning, and I was going to get one and bring it in. It was either that or wait for fog, and Peggy told me fog didn't usually happen here until spring.
Since we'd moved beyond most of the basic basics, the professor started a lecture on how humans collected climate data. That was actually rather interesting.
It hadn't occurred to me how difficult it would be for them. They had people at remote outposts writing down messages about the weather, and then they'd get the report to the nearest telegraph station and send it off. They had special balloons which flew up and saw what was up there (those are called radiosondes or just weather balloons), they used radar waves which bounced off moisture in the atmosphere, and they had even flown kites to find out if clouds make electricity. There was still a lot that they didn't know.
At the same time, I got the impression that they knew some stuff that we didn't. Because they can't control the weather very much, they get as much data as they can so that they can make accurate predictions as to what will happen next. We usually have more basic information, and the local weather teams make adjustments as needed. Sometimes that doesn't work—rainclouds don't always work like they ought to. There was a really bad summer where most of the moisture calculations were off, and some places got nasty storms, while other places got rainclouds that didn't rain at all. It turned out a journeymare had mixed up a couple of columns in her report, and nopony caught the error until it was too late. There were a lot of unhappy ponies on the ground because of that mistake.
In philosophy, we learned that Thomas Aquinas had seen that a monarchy was the best form of government. That's what we have, and it works very well. Technically, it's a diarchy, but the principle is really the same. Both sisters take their turn being in charge—sometimes two heads are better than one. And then littler towns have their own leaders because it's okay for them to change without as big a plan as Princess Celestia and Princess Luna have for Equestria. They had to think about the whole nation and our mayor only had to think about our town, so she could focus on the little specifics which are too small for the Princesses to have to worry about, like whether we should add another dock to our harbor or just make do with the ones we have.
I talked with Lisa and Becky and Meghan some more in Equestrian class. The professor is still having us in groups, but she's having me just move between the four groups rather than stay in one place. That's better 'cause everybody can learn more that way.
Everyone started reading Daring Do and the Forbidden City of Clouds, and I came around and helped them with concepts that they don't understand. I thought that I'd be pretty bored, but it turns out that there was a lot they had trouble with.
It was kind of funny to watch a bunch of college students struggling with a novel. But I couldn't laugh at them, because nopony is laughing at me when I struggle with Aquinas or e e cummings or anything else that humans understand and I don't.
Meghan said that she was having some trouble, and wanted to know if I could come over to her dorm room and help her out. I said I couldn't tonight, but that I would tomorrow night. So she gave me her room number and telephone number as well.
At dinner, Peggy and I discussed what we were going to tell Mister Salvatore to do about the angry man. We maybe should have done it sooner, but I think it helped both of us to take a little time to think about it. Sometimes in the moment you want to just rush into something and you wind up doing something dumb but if you have time to think it's always better. We like to get a feel for feral storms before we go fight them, 'cause even if it gets a little bit further while you're thinking you do better against it if you know the best places to hit it.
I decided that I would abide by her choice. She's the one who had her clothes ruined, and she knows humans and the law better than I do. To my mind, there wasn't any point in pursuing it further. He was gone, and if I saw him again, I'd know to stay away from him. It wasn't much different than seeing a predator; you avoid it, stick a little closer to your friends, and then there is no problem.
Peggy grudgingly agreed. She said that there wasn't any point to making a federal case out of it. So when we got back to our room, I typed a computer letter to Mister Salvatore saying what we'd decided, and Peggy read over it as well, and then I sent it.
Either Mister Salvatore spends a lot of time at his computer, or else I just have very good timing, because he sent me a letter back right away and said that he would respect our decision and not pursue the matter any further unless it became necessary, and then he asked if there was anything else I needed.
Well, I thought it would be fun to meet up with Aquamarine some weekend soon, and wondered if he might be able to give me a ride, if she was interested in spending some time with me. He said that he would, so I also wrote a letter to her asking if I could come out and visit, or if she wanted to come here (because Peggy thought that would be really cool).
Now the real question: Do ponies have Original Sin?
(Having pulled the pin on the theological hand grenade, Georg lurked back in the shadows to watch the fireworks.)
Trying to explain the concept of grace to a pony is a weird thought. Original sin for that matter. The Felix Culpa is hard enough for people actually IN churches. I'm reminded of Paul at the Aeropagus (which I've been too Squee) and the reactions of the local philosophers breakfast fight club.
Aquinas also laid down rules of Just War. Now that would be upsetting, I think. Maybe. Who knows?
Hope she catches herself a cloud!
Maybe in a few hundred years ponies will start trying to spread the Good Word of Friendship (as recorded by the prophetess and huge dork Twilight Sparkle) to humanity.
A monarchy is the best form of government IF you have a benevolent leader that is looking out for all of his or her subjects. Problem is those leaders are extremely rare and in the meantime you are left with a tyrant. Constitutional democracies are the best at preventing tyrannies but are riddled with special interest groups and and petty empire builders. I would think both are plagued with the dreaded bureaucrat.
Equestria hit the Jackpot with Celestia and Luna.
7058491 Just don't undercalculate your throw. Don't want to get blown up by your own Holy Grenade.
Something you've never heard before if you guess the reference
7058491 Do you really think they're just going to let you do that?
7058491 was just thinking that.
I'm not sure they would! I'm having a hard time imagining how a doctrine of original sin would originate in a world without (seemingly) a conception of deity. Of course, we have a limited window into Silver's Equestria because she's not going toninfodump about stuff she already knows.
Aw, no violent revenge?
Fine. I'll settle for shipping Meghanglow.
7058491 See Sombra, and the History of the Crystal Empire for further details.
7058491
ever since I saw Aquinas on the syllabus I was wondering who'd be first to thow one of those.
7058523 RUN AWAAAYYYY!! (to coninue the reference )
Now all kidding aside it should prove to be a very interesting conversation if/when it happens that Silver finds someone, hopefully good, to talk to about the subject. Like 7058537 says it is really hard at this point to tell just what the ponies believe given she's not gonna infodump herself in her own journal. Though I'd say there are some hints here but not a lot to build a ton of speculation on.
And darn it now thinking about this has reminded me of another book sitting on my must read list. C.S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet.... I really wish I was as fast a reader as Twi sometimes.
Well that ought to spur some interesting conversation if Silver goes to see a chaplain. Both in the story and the comments. In the mean time, it seems some of the readers are making their own brackets as to who is gonna be shipped with Silver Glow
Today I learned that there are a few civilian A-10's being converted for tornado research. I suppose that could require a stouter aircraft than the P-3's NOAA flies.
Not that Silver Glow would get the opportunity to go on an extended field trip, but her reaction to flying inside hurricanes and storms would be interesting.
I'm sure there are some churches around campus that would be very glad to tell Silver Glow about God. And probably some synagogues and mosques, too...
Ahh, can't wait until Silver Glow actually brings a cloud into class.
7046840 "Tippecanoe and Twilight too"
"It's morning in America (thanks to me!)"
"The only thing we have to befriend is friendship itself!"
"Looks like you won't have Trixie to kick around anymore!"
I'm not certain if Silver has realised that a smartphone (and many other devices) is basically a fully featured laptop in some ways, or that many electronics have some form of processor inside it, all engineered from similar principles.
Chaplain might be thinking princess Celestia is a religious figure when she compares God to her during discussion, until he realises that she is actually a real pony with actual control over the sun and goes like "wtf"
I hope Silver Glow finds a good person to talk about God with. :-( They are harder to find than I would prefer.
I'd wager that Georg's question is causing churches to split.
7058622 Yeah, I've read that one. It's a good examination of how an alien race that wasn't affected by our sins might turn out.
I find it interesting that we might know some things about weather that ponies don't, and not just about Everfree style weather. I don't exactly plan on adopting that headcanon, but it's interesting.
7058622 7058837 Or, for a darker theological perspective on alien races that seem to live idealized lives, try James Blish's Case of Conscience where it turns out the aliens quite possibly are illusions set up by the devil to convince people it's possible to live an idealized life without religion - since the aliens don't have any religion. If we really found an alien race like that, I'm sure some people would start yelling that... and even I might get some nagging suspicions...
7058491
IIRC, according to Catholicism... no, aliens do not have original sin, and do not need to be saved by Jesus. God has other plans for aliens.
As for what Protestants think... well it doesn't really matter because Protestants do not have one opinion on anything, seeing as how there are hundreds of denominations which are all Protestant, all of which espouse a "personal relationship with God."
7058523 Thermonuclear hand grenades, for those with strong throwing arms. Now that's a reference.
7058537 I don't see why the concept of original sin requires a diety, not addressing the specific Genesis story-struggling-manfully-to-not-call-it-myth. All sentient creatures have their own individual interests, which is the heart of original sin. I am not you, which causes conflict, then strife, then wickedness, then evil.
Ponies have their own concept of grace, they just call it Harmony. And they clearly struggle against the disharmony bred from being individuals with self-interest in the show.
Did Silver just get propositioned?
7058969 I understand where you're coming from and in fact have described sin in much a similar way.
So let me clarify a bit: would she recognize any distinction between mere mortal selfishness and what we might call sin?
I can conceive of mere human evil without a godhead but without one I cannot conceive of sin strictly as it would require something or someone to sin against.
It would
be a bit of a buggergreat if Ponies turned up asking what happened to Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr ; or Celestias cousin Sleipnir.7059051 I think the Eden story aligns mortality and consciousness with the concept of sin, that is, there is no sin without both mortality and knowledge. Without knowledge, one is an animal - and this is even in these secular days legal doctrine, mens rea, I believe is the term? And the ripe old term for particularly serious evil is "mortal sin", after all. Lesser sin is called by Catholics venal sin.
But I think there's a philosophical divergence between Catholics and Protestants on this subject, because of the relative place of grace in the two traditions. When you insist on by grace alone, the idea of venal sin becomes nugatory - "one cannot kill time without injuring eternity." Take diety out of that equation and you still have the abstracts. There are many a modern day Puritan walking the world today willing and eager to swear on a stack of Hawkins, Gould and Darwin to the positive absence of God, and yet watch their beliefs turn on an axis of original sin and grace. Although they do seem prone to reviving the sale of indulgences at every opportunity - see above, the resilience of sin in a fallen world.
Now, to get back to your point about victimless sin and the Catholic view. There is a concept called dignity which I've seen Catholics use to express purity sins, which I think covers the ground we're talking about. These largely cover intuitive evils - those sins which we recognize at an emotional level as wrong, but can't be demonstrated as such from utilitarian logical grounds. Do ponies have this concept? Fanon tends heavily towards utilitarian hedonism for cultural reasons, but see show canon "Hearts and Hooves Day", and the CMC's disgust at jelly jar stallion.
7058520 Even bigger jackpot since they are apprently immortal or at least ageless. Meaning Equestria don't even have to fear the moment they pass the crown to an incompetent heir.
7059089 But there's apparently the nonzero chance that one or more of the diarchy can fall out of Harmony and go Nightmare. Which is, after all, the problem with goddess-princesses, or even anointed kings. Interesting thing about current canon Equestria: the princesses aren't the font of morality. That may or may not be the Tree of Harmony, from which the Elements were gifted, but certainly something further up the chain of creation than mere alicorns.
In a certain sense, Equestria appears to correspond more closely with Yezidi cosmology than Christian concepts, with the princesses standing in the place of the Peacock Angel, entrusted by the creator of the world with sovereignty over creation despite past rebellion.
Huh. I hope there aren't too many continuity nods in that Daring Do novel. It's at least the third one in the series. Hard enough to read something in another language when it isn't referring to books you haven't read... unless someone's been translating Yearling's work into human languages. I wonder if she's any planning visits to Earthly ruins.
The religion matter will be very interesting to watch as it develops. I'm not saying any more than that.
Ponies and humans must both wonder about the big questions like "Why are we here?" and "Why is the world the way it is?" I wonder if there's a natural worldview difference between a world like ours where there are no clear, universal answers to these questions and a world with a ruler who probably has the answers and probably won't give them to you straight.
Happy Maundy Thursday and Purim.
I guess I'll get fershnickered, but also listen to sad music to remain appropriately somber. I am more the classic "tired and emotional" type, as they used to say.
eatthinkbemerry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/jesus-praying-in-gethsemane-39591-wallpaper.jpg
img.izismile.com/img/img5/20120314/640/purim_binge_drinking_640_17.jpg
(I'm Lutheran, for the record. We very much appreciate good booze and are heartily sorry for some of the nastier things Old Martin said about Jews)
7058877 Me, I always thought that it'd be funny to read a story where the aliens were surprised that some of us didn't believe in at least one god.
7059395 The modern status quo where atheism/agnosticism, and general distrust of religion is the norm is fairly recent in human history. I think it's actually very likely that aliens would find it odd that we think like that. They also might find our idea of the separation of church and state, and the separation of mind, body and soul strange. Or our idea that there should be a separate sphere of life for religion, and leave it out of our public life.
Though I do think it's very odd that ponies can't seem to comprehend any kind of higher figure than Celestia. I'm not sure if that's what is being implied in the story, but I don't think it's very realistic.
7059423 To be fair, a lot of people have the idea that newer ideas are a sign of progress, and assume the path we have taken is the right one, so to them an alien race that is further along technologically would be "further along" in other areas as well. The Admiral covers the technological side of this in his stories "Celestia Sleeps In" and "Onto the Pony Planet", where the human thinks that because these aliens can levitate things and travel between the stars that they must be super advanced, and all the old timey things they're using are just for aesthetics. He still hasn't realized his mistake yet.
Also, the Admiral has said that she doesn't recognize Celestia as an Abrahamic god, and thinks God is supposed to be a human leader, at least when she heard about Him in class. I'm not sure what she thinks after the latest chapter, but there's nothing that guarantees that she has no concept of a higher being. We know that Pinkie's parents believe in providence at least.
7059395
Thou art god. May you never thirst, Water Brother.
c85c7a.medialib.glogster.com/media/14/14ceec23722314d26f1367ead7b0ffa58a7a227221608e723c32ce91839ce691/valentine-michael-smith-jpg.jpg
7059136
Nothing can be perfect isn't it?
Interesting comparaison, but do we really know that? As far as I remember, there is nothing about how Luna and Celestia beame alicorn and nothing say that Cadance and Twilight won't reach that level with time.
Looking forward to that religious beliefs conversation. I wonder if ponies have/view their princesses as deities?
7060102 Well, I didn't mean to say that the Tree made them alicorns - we know exactly zero about the origins of the alicorn sisters unless you want to bring in the comic books or the chapter books as supporting canon. I'm not inclined to do so, if only because what little I've read of either strike me as random and underwritten. I prefer to operate exclusively on the basis of the shows and movies.
Anyways, I didn't mean to conflate the origins of the sisters and the source of pony morality. The Tree is that font, but other than that we know nothing of the creation of the pony world. I tend to think of the Tree and Discord as Valar, the alicorns as Maiar, and who knows if there is an Iluvatar or not? But all of this is darkest headcanon.
7058969 7059051
That's because you're approaching it from an anthropological and literary perspective. In which case, ofc everything in Abrahamism is preceded by earlier myths in human history. Hebrews are not exactly the original storytellers of humanity.
However, from a fundamentalist/ literalist religion perspective, ofc original sin requires the story of God and the Garden of Eden. That's the entire point. You're not supposed to draw metaphorical parallels with alien species.
7059333 7059423
Imagine a world with a Buddha or a Jesus or a Muhammed, except that man is actually immortal and still lives and teaches to the present day, and can back himself up with demonstrable miracles. That is the difference between Earth and pony planet.
As our own history has demonstrated... where civilization relegates religion to the corner, it prospers and advances in science. The reverse is true when a civilization is held hostage by religion front-and-center. It seems Celestia understands this, which is why she's not a self-entitled God-Queen, and does not encourage ponies to worship anything from "higher sources" but merely to learn its lessons.
7059457
Newer ideas are not a sign of progress. Progress is a sign of progress.
7060457
Choosing the lesser of all evils, but being led by the nose by establishment media into thinking that that's the best they can hope for.
7058491
Doubt it.
7058496
I'm not sure Methodists actually believe in original sin.
Here's a joke for you (this is the condensed version).
A guy buys a new Corvette Stingray, and decided that he ought to have it blessed. So he goes into a Catholic church and asks the priest if he could bless the Stingray, and the priest looks at him and asks: "What's a Stingray?"
So the man goes down the street to a Episcopal church, and he asks the reverend if he could bless a Stingray. The reverend says: "I guess, but why would you want to bless a fish?"
Disheartened, the man drives to a Methodist church. He goes inside and asks the pastor if he could bless a Stingray. The pastor says; "You've got a Stingray? With a 429?"
The guy nods.
"Sure," the pastor says. "Only thing, what's a blessing?"
Hard to say for sure, but I think the ponies would actually be onboard with a Just War.
7058517
She does!
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
--1 Corinthians 13:13
7058520
They did, and of course it's a big help that the sisters have a rather unnatural lifespan. That's obviously going to color the ponies' views on government.
7058560
First Aric, and now Meghan?
7058622
Fear not! Her first choice is a good choice!
I already read that once as research; I ought to do it again.
7058646
Largely in the comments, I expect.
It amuses me greatly.
7058660
That's awesome! I think it'd be pretty badass to get to fly an A-10 into a tornado to see what was going on inside.
Well, she might. Not gonna rule that out.
Probably most pegasi wouldn't want to fly into a wild hurricane or tornado--they'd know better than to try that.
7058685
There's a church right on campus, in fact. And yes, there are also a number of other churches, synagogues, and mosques in Kalamazoo, as well.
7058691
As of the latest chapter, well. . . .
7058726
She's learning, but she didn't know that at first.
Well, that's true--it goes both ways. There's a gulf between what we believe and what the ponies believe, and in some cases thinking things are the same on both sides is very wrong.
7058771
My dad's probably a good one. He is a retired minister, who was educated as a chemist (I think he actually has a chemistry degree).
7058837
Sometimes there's a difference between doing and knowing. I work as an auto mechanic, so I understand the hows and whys of how things break, how to diagnose what's broken, and how to fix it. I don't know--and don't need to know--the engineering behind how the car was built.
I think that the pegasi have an innate understanding of the weather, and that they have researched as much of it as they need to in order to manipulate it, but at the same time, they probably aren't going as in-depth in it as we do.
7058941
Huh, that's interesting.
7059019
No.
7059061
I've always seen them as being more Greek myself. But that would be awesome. I love reading fics that tie in classical mythology.
7059155
If it's anything like the series, I doubt there are. You know, I actually have that book, but I haven't read it yet.
Realistically, there would almost certainly be publishing houses right on top of that.
Probably not. Our ruins are sadly lacking in booby traps and giant monsters who want to kill you, despite what we've seen in Indiana Jones movies. I think she'd get bored with our ruins pretty quickly.
That's probably the safest course of action.
7059333
Those are both important points.
To the first, it's hard for me to imagine any intelligent species not asking those questions (and the always important 'what happens after we die?').
For the ponies, whether or not the Princesses are gods in any sense of the word, it's quite likely that ponies would put great faith in what they say. Even if they don't actually know, their word will be believed, especially if it's about something that can't be verified. This could be either a blessing or a curse, I suppose.
7059423
I think one could go either way on this. We've seen no firm evidence in the show that there are higher figures than Celestia, and we're unlikely to. But I could imagine them having some sort of pantheon of gods.
The one thing that makes it possibly sticky when it comes to that is the unnaturally long lives of some of the Equestrian creatures. We know that Celestia and Luna are over a thousand years old, and fanon is that dragons live for hundreds or thousands of years as well. With that thought in mind, in an Earth context, it's possible that an elder dragon could be telling his youngest grandson about what things were like in ancient Greece. If the dragons have writing, there could very well have been sapient observers who watched the ponies evolve from a grazing society to what they have now. I'm not saying that's so, but given the nature of the show, it's possible.
Also, I just thought of this: Discord could be seen as a higher power than Celestia. He can stop her control of the sun, and she alone doesn't have the power to stop him. LIkewise, the Tree of Harmony is probably a higher power.
7060120
I personally don't think that they do.
7063860 Ngh! I was raised Methodist, yes, they have the concept of original sin, all Christian sects do, and so do most post-Christian sects, although I couldn't swear to what exactly the Unitarians believe. I'm not positive that any given Unitarian could tell you their doctrines without telling a series of whoppers, it's less a church than a fraternal organization to provide church social structure to the post-religious. Kinda like the Masons without the playacting, but you still have to say that God exists. Everything else is negotiable.
Where I think you're going with the Methodists is that they have very little use for theology in general and exegesis in particular. Methodism started out as a very low church piestic movement, oriented towards moral reform of the lower classes and the underserviced. They got around the whole predestination mess by investing in something called prevenient grace, but I didn't learn that until after I fell out of the church. As I said, it is a very pragmatic sect.
BTW, the 19th century collapse of Methodism into over two hundred sects not generally in communion with each other probably has a lot to do with that pragmatism - the 20th century reunion in the United Methodist Church was only possible once they simplified the doctrine down to bare bones and agreed to drop all the church politics in a burn pit out past the spring chapel and let the ashes politick amongst the cinders.
7058517
I'm now seeing "dork" as a religious title of significant gravitas in Equestria, much like "apostle" is on Earth. Probably "egghead" would be, too.
I've always been partial to calling it a "binarchy".
Aaaand other times one of them ends up on the moon for a couple of years.
Does she mean studying?
7058491
Depends on if they're fallen like us or innocent like Adam and Eve in the garden.
C. S. Lewis has a great essay on this topic.
http://scientificintegrity.blogspot.com/2010/04/religion-and-rocketry-by-cs-lewis.html
Silver Glow is supposed to be naive but intelligent. This journal is supposed to be her practicing writing in the local ape-language. That is the charm of the story. ¿How does she know about the convention of capitalizing pronouns related to gods? Speaking abouts gods:
My take is that ponies have no religion and accepts that when brains stop working, that is it. I wonder what your take will be.